Does anyone carry one of their builds?

[JCinPA]

Surprisingly, an advanced search with "Carry" in the title yielded no results on this topic. I build the P80 version of the G43 and built it with complete OEM parts, including magazines (with Pearce +2 extensions, though) and have been carrying it frequently. I know OEM parts are not absolutely required, but this gun has never bobbled a single round, it runs, well, like a Glock.

A hot debate is should you or should you not carry a modified handgun. Some say box-stock only, others say it doesn't matter, especially if it's not to make the gun easier to fire. For instance, my putting a + connector in my G45 increases trigger pull weight and would be no problem.

In PA, guns are legal, I got a wonderful holster from Knightfall Customs, and have been happily carrying my little gun for almost a year. Does anyone else do this, or are you only carrying branded guns for self-defense?

 

[Alpa Chino]

Like so many things it isn’t a problem unless it becomes a problem.
A lot of people out there don’t understand that assembling/building is legal (in some states) and why it should be legal and why you’d ever want to do such a thing.
Unless you get a couple of gun knowledgeable people in your jury your attorney will be spending a lot of time explaining why and the prosecution will definitely use it.
Guilty by association if you will.

So carry? No I wouldn’t unless we’re talking massive civil unrest.
Have one around the house for grabs yes.
That’s easily explained that you just happened to get to your hobby gun first before one of your production guns.

 

[Racer88]

A hot debate is should you or should you not carry a modified handgun. Some say box-stock only, others say it doesn't matter, especially if it's not to make the gun easier to fire. For instance, my putting a + connector in my G45 increases trigger pull weight and would be no problem.

In PA, guns are legal, I got a wonderful holster from Knightfall Customs, and have been happily carrying my little gun for almost a year. Does anyone else do this, or are you only carrying branded guns for self-defense?

Maybe it's just the pedant in me, but I do not like the "guns" term. To me it's the same as "assault weapon." It's a made-up term designed by the anti-gun establishment to incite fear in people... another thing to be banned.

I just don't think it's in our best interest to adopt the anti-gunner's lexicon (of deception). I don't build "guns." It's a bullshit term. I build guns. Privately made firearms (PFMs).

I much prefer "PMF" (privately made firearm).

I carry my P80 PFC9 (100% finished / serialized) and built it specifically for carry. I decided to go serialized just to hedge my bets in case I'm ever forced to use it in self-defense. Hopefully never!

I posted a "build diary" about it here:

Serialized P80 PFC9 - EDC Build Diary

Thought I'd start a new thread for this project. I decided to move up (in size) from my factory Glock 27, which I've carried for many years. When I shot it in the "Dicken Drill," it was a wake-up moment. I was disappointed with my performance, though I was able to "pass" the test. The G27 is...

www.patriotgunbuilders.com

I asked Mas Ayoob about it on Glock Talk here:

PMF (personally made firearms) for EDC / SD

Hi Mas! Long time fan, first time "caller" (I think!). I did a quick search and didn't find anything on this. How do you feel about using / carrying a PMF (such as a P80) from a legal standpoint? Any observations on that front? I've been carrying a factory Glock (27) for many many years...

www.glocktalk.com

Basically he said that as long as the trigger is "stock," it would not get "attention." He also mentioned having it serialized, though he didn't specifically stipulate it as "necessary." Go read the thread and see what you think.

 

[JCinPA]

Good, thoughtful points.

1. A jury will likely use the fact that I put a Johnny Glock trigger in my OEM G26 against me even though it INCREASED the pull weight. Can't defend against stupid, it's going to happen regardless.

2. I agree with the comment about guns, I will stop using it!

3. I doubt putting a serial number on your PFM will matter, see point 1, above, but do what you like. I'll contemplate carrying it some more, but I'm not serializing it. There's simply no point, IMO.

4. Mas puts out a lot of good stuff, but he's an absolutist on this and I disagree with him. Putting in a mod that increases trigger pull is responsible, but he says the jury will still use it against you. Again, see 1, above. Can't avoid stupid.

My G26 has Hackathorn sights, JG trigger, and +2 OEM mag extensions and I use a G19 with Xgrip as a second magazine. Mas would have a stroke. Only carry a box-stock gun. I think that's ridiculous, although he has a lot of good stuff to share otherwise.

 

[Racer88]

3. I doubt putting a serial number on your PFM will matter, see point 1, above, but do what you like. I'll contemplate carrying it some more, but I'm not serializing it. There's simply no point, IMO.

I don't disagree. I didn't serialize an 80% frame. I bought a factory-serialized frame for my EDC. I did it just as a "hedge." It may not make any difference at all.

4. Mas puts out a lot of good stuff, but he's an absolutist on this and I disagree with him. Putting in a mod that increases trigger pull is responsible, but he says the jury will still use it against you. Again, see 1, above. Can't avoid stupid.

I didn't mean to imply Mas was the "final word" on it. He's just the only "expert" I approached with the question, since he was conveniently available on the GT forum.

It's worth saying (I think) that just because an expert opines that the prosecutor will "use it against you," - it's not the jury that uses anything against you - does NOT mean the prosecution will be SUCCESSFUL because of it.

My G26 has Hackathorn sights, JG trigger, and +2 OEM mag extensions and I use a G19 with Xgrip as a second magazine. Mas would have a stroke. Only carry a box-stock gun. I think that's ridiculous,

I didn't interpret his advice as "only carry a box-stock" gun. The entire exchange was about carrying a PMF, which is hardly "box stock," and he didn't have any quibble with carrying the PMF. He only suggested that it be serialized AND that the trigger be at least EQUIVALENT to a factory trigger in terms of pull weight.

In the end, I think it comes down to making a personal decision based on all the information you have and how you feel it pertains to you. I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong." These are fairly minor details in the bigger picture of whether defensive lethal force was justified.

But yes... the prosecution will try ANYTHING to paint you as the "bad guy." It doesn't mean it will work. If the defensive use of lethal force was legally justified... all those other superfluous details shouldn't matter. But one can certainly argue in favor of handing the prosecution as little "ammunition" as possible that could be used to paint you in an unfavorable light.

 

[JCinPA]

Oh, then Mas has mellowed over the years! I’m surprised he’s OK with the PMF. He used to be very against any mods at all. I agree, there’s no point at all worrying about prosecutors these days, they all seem to be bad. Maybe carrying mine is not as crazy as I thought it might be. Esp with a + connector for heavier trigger pull.

Thanks for the reply!

My “box stock gun” comment was based on stuff I’ve read by him 20 years ago, maybe.

 

[Racer88]

Oh, then Mas has mellowed over the years!

My “box stock gun” comment was based on stuff I’ve read by him 20 years ago, maybe.

Click the link to the GlockTalk thread.

 

[Bobster]

I don't know why a "trigger mod" (unless a binary or something like that) would affect a self-defense case. Do you really think investigators are going to be checking trigger pull? Maybe a shiny, fancy looking trigger or other parts might get their attention...

 

[Alpa Chino]

Anything to make a weapon “more lethal” including large capacity magazines, optics, lasers, after market triggers, ammo with exciting marketing gimmicky names…all fair game in court.
Why did you modify the trigger? Make it easier to pull? Easier to murder people that stumble into your house at night?
With R.I.P ammo no less?!
That it’s available and legal doesn’t make it wise.

Consider this, so you bought your teenager a high performance car? You didn’t buy the regular version you bought the car with the V8 Hemi. If that wasn’t enough you had a performance increasing exhaust mounted, racing wheels installed and the engine chipped.
All to encourage reckless behavior that caused the loss of control and the crash with a fatality. Now try and explain that away in court.

As far as Ayoob? No doubt the man is an expert but I’ve seen some seriously cringeworthy YouTube videos where he advocates carrying a 1911 because a lot of bad people wouldn’t know how to work the safety.

 

[JCinPA]

To the last two questions, 20 years ago Mas was against ANY modification to ANY gun used defensively. Apparently, he has loosened up a bit, I just was not aware. And yes, he's done some cringeworthy videos, but I take the good with the bad.

I think at this point, however, none of his warnings hold any water. With the Soros-funded DAs you're the one who is the "bad guy" regardless of the validity of the shoot. If anyone brings up aspects of the gun used, you just need to argue, "I shot him intentionally, he was threatening my life. The gun does not matter." You just have to keep hammering that relentlessly and not even address the gun issue.

If I shoot a perp in self-defense with my P80 or with a box-stock G19, I'm going to get the same treatment, I suspect, in any court here in Eastern PA. I'm glad to hear at least some of you are also carrying their builds, too, though.

 

[Racer88]

To the last two questions, 20 years ago Mas was against ANY modification to ANY gun used defensively. Apparently, he has loosened up a bit, I just was not aware. And yes, he's done some cringeworthy videos, but I take the good with the bad.

I didn't intend to imply Mas was any sort of "final authority" on the subject. He just happens to be the one to whom I had fairly easy access. And he was kind enough to respond.

In this rather contentious subject area, there will certainly be debate and disagreement.

With the Soros-funded DAs you're the one who is the "bad guy" regardless of the validity of the shoot.

Of course. But as I mentioned previously, and you repeat below.... what really matters is the legal justifiability (if that's a word) of the defensive use of lethal force.

If anyone brings up aspects of the gun used, you just need to argue, "I shot him intentionally, he was threatening my life. The gun does not matter." You just have to keep hammering that relentlessly and not even address the gun issue.

Yep. Was lethal force justifiable, or not? For that, we can look to the "AOJ" tripod or the "Five Elements."

If I shoot a perp in self-defense with my P80 or with a box-stock G19, I'm going to get the same treatment, I suspect, in any court here in Eastern PA.

In the end, the adage is true... Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

 

[Alpa Chino]

I don’t think ‘Soros’ has anything to do with anything and frankly bringing that up just devalued what you said.

Can Gun Modifications Be Used Against Me in Court?​

Any time anyone asks me “can X be used against me in court,” regardless of what “X” might be, my answer is always “Yes.” That’s because prosecutors have incredibly broad discretion in what they are allowed to argue in court.

It’s true that your defense attorney may be able to convince the trial judge to prohibit a prosecutor from arguing about one issue or another, in which case that issue is no longer available as a legal weapon with which the prosecutor can attack you.

But that decision itself is left to the broad discretion of the trial judge, and you never really know how they’ll rule, allowing the prosecution’s argument, or prohibiting it, until you’re already looking down the barrel of a trial. As a result, we have to be prepared now for that decision to go against us then.

Legal Liability for Carry Gun Modifications – Law of Self Defense

lawofselfdefense.com

 

[Racer88]

I don’t think ‘Soros’ has anything to do with anything and frankly bringing that up just devalued what you said.

Legal Liability for Carry Gun Modifications – Law of Self Defense

lawofselfdefense.com

Also, from Andrew Branca's article...

<<<And that’s the real issue, from my perspective as a lawyer—not so much whether the argument will be allowed—we have to be prepared for the possibility that it will—but whether the argument is likely to cause serious damage, and how readily I can defend against that damage.>>>

<<<What about arguments based on modifications to a concealed carry gun, in an effort by the prosecutor to make the defendant look bad? The same analysis applies. We have to assume that the arguments will be permitted. The real question is how harmful are these arguments likely to be, and how easily can that damage be defended against.>>>

<<<We can distinguish between these two classes of modifications by asking which of them are relevant to some required element of the defendant’s claim of self-defense, of which there are up to five elements: Innocence, Imminence, Proportionality, Avoidance, and Reasonableness.>>>

<<<The gun modifications of most concern to me fall into two categories:

• Modifications that suggest a state of mind inconsistent with lawful self-defense.
• Modifications that suggest the shooting might have been accidental/negligent rather than intentional.>>>

<<<Can a prosecutor perhaps still talk about your red dot? Sure, or at least we have to presume he will be. Is it likely to cause harm to a claim of self-defense if he does so? No. Is it relatively easy to defend against any harm it might cause? Yes.>>>

PS... I've had the pleasure of corresponding with Andrew Branca multiple times over several years. He's a sharp guy. I also HIGHLY recommend his book:
Amazon product ASIN 1943809143
View: https://www.amazon.com/Law-Self-Defense-Indispensable-Citizen/dp/1943809143

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I am sticking with my Hellcat. I have no concerns about carrying any P80 I've built. I just like the Hellcat best.

 

[Alpa Chino]

Miranda rights should read:

“Anything you have done WILL be used against you in a court of Law”

Little paranoid maybe but anything is open to interpretation, intentional and unintentional misinterpretation and context.
Actions and words.
One day I was contacted by a lawyer asking to be a witness for the defense.
I refused and was subsequently subpoenaed to do so.
How the prosecutor was twisting events was mind boggling and when I was called to the stand I was raging inside.

 

[JCinPA]

Thanks for the book recommend, Racer.

And at Alpha Chino, don’t know what about Soros sticks in your craw, but his supported DAs, universally across the country, are significantly more inclined to not charge or under charge criminals, and to charge people who defend themselves. That’s just a fact, not politics, fact.

 

[clm2112]

Hmmm. Last year I attended a concealed carry seminar hosted by two PA state reps. Bud Cook and Ryan Warner. The speaker was one of the folks trying to get Constitutional Carry passed in PA. I posed the question about the legalities of using a home-made firearm in self defense.

The answers I got were less than encouraging. Yes, it is still legal in PA despite Shapiro's attempts to make it illegal by fiat. The issue is one of perception by law enforcement officers, and then by motivated prosecutors. By their own words, more experience officers would be likely to know a unserialized firearm is not an illegal one. The younger officers might need "helped along" in understanding that you are not breaking any law by carrying an arm you made yourself. So, if you get pulled over in a traffic stop, a younger officer is likely to flip out on you, where as one with more experience is likely to ignore who manufactured the firearm you a legally carrying.

Like "assault rifle", "gun" is a political term latched onto by a willing and compliant media to scare the shit out of an ignorant public. As distasteful as the scare tactic is, it is obviously effective with a public so willing to be influenced by fear. That is what you would face if a case was brought against you for any reason... that your legal firearm was somehow illegal and a threat to society. That is the jury you will face, like it or not.

It is a sad reality... emotions often rule over reason. A person who can reason will see that a crime is an action committed by a person or persons, and not be influenced by the irrelevant details. For example, I murder you with a hammer: The important details are that I hit you in the head with a hammer, resulting in your death. The irrelevant details are who made the hammer (as if Stanley, DeWalt, Kobalt, or my back yard forge make hammers more or less likely to drive me to kill.) But, your jury will be composed, by the prosecutors choice, of people who can be influenced into convicting you of murder because you made the hammer yourself.

So, for the moment, I do not carry the home-made firearms off my own property. I carry a commercially made one, loaded with commercially made ammunition. It sucks, but it is what it is.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Hmmm. Last year I attended a concealed carry seminar hosted by two PA state reps. Bud Cook and Ryan Warner. The speaker was one of the folks trying to get Constitutional Carry passed in PA. I posed the question about the legalities of using a home-made firearm in self defense.

The answers I got were less than encouraging. Yes, it is still legal in PA despite Shapiro's attempts to make it illegal by fiat. The issue is one of perception by law enforcement officers, and then by motivated prosecutors. By their own words, more experience officers would be likely to know a unserialized firearm is not an illegal one. The younger officers might need "helped along" in understanding that you are not breaking any law by carrying an arm you made yourself. So, if you get pulled over in a traffic stop, a younger officer is likely to flip out on you, where as one with more experience is likely to ignore who manufactured the firearm you a legally carrying.

Like "assault rifle", "gun" is a political term latched onto by a willing and compliant media to scare the shit out of an ignorant public. As distasteful as the scare tactic is, it is obviously effective with a public so willing to be influenced by fear. That is what you would face if a case was brought against you for any reason... that your legal firearm was somehow illegal and a threat to society. That is the jury you will face, like it or not.

It is a sad reality... emotions often rule over reason. A person who can reason will see that a crime is an action committed by a person or persons, and not be influenced by the irrelevant details. For example, I murder you with a hammer: The important details are that I hit you in the head with a hammer, resulting in your death. The irrelevant details are who made the hammer (as if Stanley, DeWalt, Kobalt, or my back yard forge make hammers more or less likely to drive me to kill.) But, your jury will be composed, by the prosecutors choice, of people who can be influenced into convicting you of murder because you made the hammer yourself.

So, for the moment, I do not carry the home-made firearms off my own property. I carry a commercially made one, loaded with commercially made ammunition. It sucks, but it is what it is.

I agree. And so it is. The courtroom isn't about what is right or wrong. It's about who has the most convincing story.

If you think a jury of your peers will lean toward logic and reason, consider Casey Anthony being acquitted. All it takes is a scum bag prosecutor, an indifferent judge and 12 people who think they are do-gooders to send you to prison.

Over many years, I have performed jury duty several times and been picked for three. Each time, the majority of the jury were morons. A mix of clueless liberals and a few nut jobs who perceived themselves as righteous and just wanted to convict someone. The latter tended to bully the other jurors. I confronted one of those guys, taking him aside and telling him I was going to knock his teeth out right there in the jury room if he didn't stop. It's a miracle that I didn't get tossed for that.

 

[JCinPA]

I agree. And so it is. The courtroom isn't about what is right or wrong. It's about who has the most convincing story.

...

Over many years, I have performed jury duty several times and been picked for three. Each time, the majority of the jury were morons.

That is fairly convincing. I think I'll use a GSSF coupon and get a G43 one of these days. For now I'll switch to my G26.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I think that's a wise move @JCinPA . Some builders may bristle at that and I understand why. But I think it's important to be practical and consider the realities of the public perception of firearms. One thing is certain. If you go to jail, you will have no guns. Forever.

My lawyer once told me that if you want to get a feel for how juries behave look to your condo HOA.