Is milling the future of PMFs?

Racer88

Racer88

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First thread in this new section!
šŸ„³


So, they've tried to regulate and redefine an "XX%" frame as a gun. If it can be "readily converted," whatever the fuck THAT means!

So far, it appears the current attempt by the Ay-Tee-Eff will be unsuccessful. But tyrants be tyrannical, eh? They won't stop trying.

What about ZERO PERCENT blocks of metal or plastic? We have "0%" spools of nylon already, which can be 3D printed into virtually anything the imagination can conjure. The downside of printing, as I understand it, is the limitations on the physical properties of the polymer. From what I hear, they ARE getting much better.

But solid blocks / billet of forged metal or plastic offer a whole other level of physical properties and durability.

Recently, the "Ghost Gunner 3" CNC / milling machine was released. Reportedly, it can fabricate a pistol receiver / frame from a "0%" block. Downside: $2500. But it looks pretty slick!

I personally don't know much more about either approach. But we have some folks here who do! Let's hear it!
 
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Big can of worms just cracked open....

Ok, If you are starting from just raw steel or aluminum, you might have to re-engineer the frame to fit the tools you have.

Lemme give you an example:

The humble 0% AR15 is just a forging. It is just the rough outline of the AR and it is solid all the way through. The hardest thing to form is the magazine well. You simply cannot do this on a milling machine. You need an arbor press and broach cutters to create the square inside corners first. Once that is done, you can mill away the rest of the material inside the mag well and connect the square corners together.

But there is another way to think of this... split the entire AR lengthwise into two halves. Now you can machine all of the inside surfaces on a milling machine first, knowing you are going to TiG weld the two halves together or braze them together to make the finished part. You could also do the entire AR lower as a stack of aluminum plates, machine them, and stack them back up.

Last way I can thing of... cast your own lower. Really, an AR will work with all kinds of material... you could probably make one out of month-old Jello and might work. The lower isn't subjected to a lot of forces so you can get away with it being made of all kinds of material (copper, brass, bronze, pewter, etc.)
 
clm2112 said:
The lower isn't subjected to a lot of forces so you can get away with it being made of all kinds of material (copper, brass, bronze, pewter, etc.)
Click to expand...

And even plastic... err..... polymer.
 
Racer88 said:
So far, it appears the current attempt by the Ay-Tee-Eff will be unsuccessful. But tyrants be tyrannical, eh? They won't stop trying.
Click to expand...
In the long run, I don't think it's really going to matter, 76%, 80% or 0%.
It's not really about keeping firearms out of the hands of those they say shouldn't have them, it's about control.
Even though it looks like the brace rule is going down eventually the gun control lunatics will begin to focus on the end product like many state and local governments have done. Unserialized and/or unregistered firearms will have to be illegal. What better way to control people, than to turn millions into felons with the stroke of a pen.
 
OK... I'm getting a better idea of how they do it. Apparently, the part you mill from 0% is the "upper lower." In other words, the upper part of the lower. They send you the lower lower, which is the bottom part of the mag-well and the trigger guard.

But I don't understand why the CNC will mill out the upper part of the magwell in the "upper upper"... but can't mill that lower half of the upper???

Edit to add: Apparently, the code to mill the "lower lower" is just not out yet. So eventually, you'll be able to mill all the parts, but the receiver is in three pieces.

1685376184585.png
 
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James Moore said:
Unserialized and/or unregistered firearms will have to be illegal. What better way to control people, than to turn millions into felons with the stroke of a pen.
Click to expand...

Quite impossible. They'd have to outlaw standard machining tools. That genie is out of the bottle, just like matches and lighters to start fires. They can't outlaw fire. They can't outlaw our very hands... that can make the tools to make the tools, so to speak.

It's akin to outlawing free speech by outlawing pencil and paper.

The gun genie is out of the bottle in the USA. It cannot be put back in. It's literally in our country's DNA. And there are probably close to a BILLION firearms in private American hands as we speak. There's no way it's a mere 400 million as often claimed.
 
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Racer88 said:
It would seem you CAN do it. Apparently, they do it in two pieces:

AR-00 Non-Receiver + Buffer Tower (Brass) Blocks ā€“ Ghost Gunner

ghostgunner.net ghostgunner.net
Click to expand...

Yup, and notice the magwell corners are not square. They are round. So you have to accept the magazine fit may have to be loose. What happens is the smaller the diameter of the end mill, the shorter it become. It has to be this way because it needs to be rigid. You can get drill bits with really long shanks (actually, you need a 1/16" aircraft drill bit on a 0% AR to drill the bolt catch hole... that bit is about 12" long.) But the milling bits limit the depth of cut based on the diameter of the cutter.
 
Personally, I think the DD lower is NOT the best way to approach this. In fact, it is a rather B.S. way of doing it.

Instead of splitting the receiver into a upper, lower, and buffer tube ring, you can simply split the receiver into a left side and a thin cover plate for the right hand side. This is the way revolvers, lever guns, and really high quality breech loading shotguns are made.

The buffer tube ring would be part of the receiver's left side. The cover plate on the right hand side only needs to close off the mag well, trigger pocket, and provide the two holes for the hammer and trigger pins. Since there is absolutely no need to ever remove it after the receiver is done, you can braze it to the left side.
 
In fact, if you brazed the plate on before finish machining the outside of the receiver, the seam would be invisible without X-raying the part. The casual inspection would leave people wondering "How the F- did you do that???"
 
GG3 just isnā€™t worth it. Itā€™s a one trick pony. Cost of the machine then on top that nickel and dime buyers for codes to perform various functions is ā€¦donā€™t fall for it.

Better off getting a real mill and learning the ropes. At least you can make a multitude of items without forking out cash for some code.
 
Michele said:
GG3 just isnā€™t worth it. Itā€™s a one trick pony. Cost of the machine then on top that nickel and dime buyers for codes to perform various functions is ā€¦donā€™t fall for it.

Better off getting a real mill and learning the ropes. At least you can make a multitude of items without forking out cash for some code.
Click to expand...

I thought most code (like with 3D printing) was pretty much free / open source.
 
Racer88 said:
I thought most code (like with 3D printing) was pretty much free / open source.
Click to expand...
There are thousands of 3D print files that are free. Depends on where you get the files.
Check out cults 3D collectionor the FDMA files. Some are free some have a small reasonable fee from a few cents to a few dollars.

If you donā€™t know how to make, modify, or remake (for free) then itā€™s just easy to pay a couple bucks for a cool design on the pistol frame or a great detailed articulated toy for your kid.

These interesting hollow dice are just over a buck.
IMG_0082.jpeg
 
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Pictures worth a thousand words....

Using a scrap AR lower, I milled out the right hand side to demonstrate what I mean. With one side gone, and a pair of rabbet joints to locate a plate milled in... you could cut all the magazine well without resorting to a broach cutter. Then close up this side and mill the rest of the ar lower like you normally would do.

Cut-Away_AR_1.jpg
 
Racer88 said:
I thought most code (like with 3D printing) was pretty much free / open source.
Click to expand...

Sortta. Additive manufacturing (3D printing) and CNC Machining share a common language... G-Code.

However, there are two vastly different groups of people involved. 3D printing is the realm of the hobbyist right now. So, the G-Code being created to for 3D printing is mostly free... the authors are proud of what they did and want everybody to see how neat it is.

G-code in the CNC Machining world is, well, profit. You create the code to make a part that you intend to sell a lot of copies of. You guard that code. If your competitor gets a hold of it, then they get to use your hard work against you making the same part for less.

That's why you don't see a whole lot of CNC code on the internet for free. The people who write it expect to be paid for their work.
 
clm2112 said:
That's why you don't see a whole lot of CNC code on the internet for free.
Click to expand...

Hmmm.... YET. Your explanation makes sense. But if the hobbyist level of CNC increases as prices go down and competition increases and the tech gets better... I bet we'll see the same "sharing" as we do in the printing community.
 
Racer88 said:
Hmmm.... YET. Your explanation makes sense. But if the hobbyist level of CNC increases as prices go down and competition increases and the tech gets better... I bet we'll see the same "sharing" as we do in the printing community.
Click to expand...

I bet it will too. When CNC Machining got started in the 1970's it was hobbyist hanging encoders and stepper motors on very very expensive machine tools that you wouldn't find in just anyone's basement. Those tools are still kinda expensive, and really capable ones are probably not something a hobbyist is going to fork over several months pay to acquire.

3D printing has a much lower entry cost. So, it is perfectly natural for it to become a hobby in its own right.

Now, if the cost of hanging CNC gear on a inexpensive mill becomes a reality, then more hobbyists are going to get on board and your observation will come true.
 
Racer88 said:
First thread in this new section!
šŸ„³


So, they've tried to regulate and redefine an "XX%" frame as a gun. If it can be "readily converted," whatever the fuck THAT means!

So far, it appears the current attempt by the Ay-Tee-Eff will be unsuccessful. But tyrants be tyrannical, eh? They won't stop trying.

What about ZERO PERCENT blocks of metal or plastic? We have "0%" spools of nylon already, which can be 3D printed into virtually anything the imagination can conjure. The downside of printing, as I understand it, is the limitations on the physical properties of the polymer. From what I hear, they ARE getting much better.

But solid blocks / billet of forged metal or plastic offer a whole other level of physical properties and durability.

Recently, the "Ghost Gunner 3" CNC / milling machine was released. Reportedly, it can fabricate a pistol receiver / frame from a "0%" block. Downside: $2500. But it looks pretty slick!

I personally don't know much more about either approach. But we have some folks here who do! Let's hear it!
Click to expand...
I own a GG3. Thier idea of a zero percent is a 3 piece bolted together that you must buy from DD. The current multi month wait is a huge commitment. I paid my final after 6 months. I didn't receive for almost a year... From another vender, GGD-store, I have been waiting since for the Universal Jig since 02 Jan 2022. So I have a block of electronics that will just decide to mill where it wants to no reason destroying a few 80 percent lowers. Eventually the supplier just ghost you and will not longer respond. I have gotten most of what I ordered eventually. The bad part is win a box of a jig shows up as it did last month with a AK jig I purchased so long ago I forgot I had ordered it. The new guys on the block 2A picker seem to be much better at the customer service side right now.
 
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Jonesc00666 said:
I own a GG3. Thier idea of a zero percent is a 3 piece bolted together that you must buy from DD. The current multi month wait is a huge commitment. I paid my final after 6 months. I didn't receive for almost a year... I have been waiting since for the Universal Jig since 02 Jan 2022. So I have a block of electronics that will just decide to mill where it wants to no reason destroying a few 80 percent lowers. Eventually the supplier just ghost you and will not longer respond. I have gotten most of what I ordered eventually. The bad part is win a box of a jig shows up as it did last month with a AK jig I purchased so long ago I forgot I had ordered it.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm... that's "no bueno!" I thought that this machine would take an 80% frame and... presto change-o, it would spit out a finished 100% frame. But, what got my attention was the "0%" concept... from a solid block of material. Apparently that's not really the case, either.

I'mma gonna wait! (not that I was in the market quite yet anyway)

The free market should take care of it... with competition spurring lower prices and better technology.
 
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