Kerfuffle with another shooter at the range today.

[Racer88]

Fun day at the range. Got into a little "kerfuffle" with another idiot shooter there! It was quite amusing!

So, the range went cold. I stayed behind the line, as I didn't need to change my target. Most of the shooters were out attending to their targets.

One of the shooters to my left (about 4 lanes down) approached the bench, and one of the RSOs yelled, "Stay off the benches!" It happens all-too-frequently at the range. Folks just forget and figure, "I'm just grabbing my cell phone"... or other seemingly benign thing.

Now... had the guy simply backed off with a "mea culpa" or "oops, sorry," nothing more would have happened. But this clown outed himself as a moron by saying, "I thought you said the range is hot!"

And that's when I couldn't resist.... with a smile, I said (while pointing), "There are people out on the range!" In other words, the chances of the RSO calling it hot are ZERO. And even if he had, it's SUPER-obvious there is a CROWD of shooters out there. DUH! You can't go hot while people are out there.

And then he actually said this: "I didn't look out there." Ummmmmm.... must.... resist.... And as he said that, my friend @Caleb was coming in (from changing his target) through the little gate RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE GUY. I didn't say anything, but I laughed. Unless the guy was blind, again.... a crowd of people out there downrange! LOL!

In desperation to save his own embarrassment, he yelled at me, "How about fuck you!" To which I replied with a big smile... simply, "OK."

About this time, an RSO (former Marine) approached the moron to talk to him. He passed by me and gestured to just not say anything else. The moron then told RSO, "Well, he's mouthing off to me." After the RSO talked to him, he passed me again on his way back and gave me a big eye roll, implying this moron was... well... a moron.

If the guy hadn't said "I thought he called it hot," I would not have said anything. But with that, I couldn't resist! Also... before the RSOs call it hot, they have a routine schpiel that includes asking the entire line, "Does anyone see anyone downrange?" And the RSOs expect us to confirm and answer out loud... "NO!"

There is no place for ego on a gun range. He was embarrassed and was trying to save face but dug his own hole deeper. But an extra dose of embarrassment (courtesy of me) can serve to emphasize a safety lesson learned.

The funny thing is that I got there (earlier) as the range was opening for the day. I chatted with one of the RSOs about range safety, and he said "We have to be strict because of the crazy shit we see." He also said, "It's everyone's duty to be an RSO... if you see something, say something."

 

[FrankenGlock]

It helps to have a barrier to the firing line, rope, when you go cold along with a sound that indicates the range is cold as it helps alleviate those issues. Dude probably should have been asked to leave as he was dangerous and confrontational. Neither is good when people have guns. Certainly don't need a hot head acting in an unsafe manner out there.

 

[Bobster]

My range is "members-only" except for Public Day and some competition events. Entry is via an RF key card you wave at the sensor at the gate, it flashes green, then the gate opens. There are two club meetings, BGC, the paying of dues and orientation before a card is issued to a new member. Often during the week there is NO ONE there.

On weekends, it is a little busier but never crowded. I usually will shoot at the pistol range which has 25, 50, 15 and 7yd ranges (from LtoR). sighting center-fire rifles is allowed at the 25 and 50. It is probably the widest range there--I'm guessing 200' wide. Generally, the range is always assumed "HOT" and I'll note if there are any shooters along the entire length and also walking to or at the targets (which would mean "COLD"). Most everyone is polite and I'll unload my car and get my guns ready while an existing shooter ends their string.

When they are done I'll often hear "Do you want to go cold?" to which I'll reply "yes, let's go COLD", and they will repeat "going COLD" while backing away from the firing line. Then I/we will set up targets and once everyone is back behind the firing line, one of us will say "Can we go HOT" and we will wait for EVERYONE to say "going HOT" at which point the range is hot. Sometimes because of the width of the range I'll walk to the shooter on the other side so I don't have to yell and sometimes to see what they're shooting.

I don't think I've ever had an issue with anyone at my range. I've seen guys shooting faster than 1sec between shots at the pistol range but their groups were tight and when they were done I reminded them that if any of the club elders heard them they would probably yell at them. "That's what the plinking range is for." Although my ID says I'm an RSO, and I'm supposed to be "on duty" all the time, I don't let it go to my head. Some of the others get off on it and wear their RSO hat or shirt when casually shooting (ie: no comp event or public day).

 

[Racer88]

My range is "members-only" except for Public Day and some competition events. Entry is via an RF key card you wave at the sensor at the gate, it flashes green, then the gate opens. There are two club meetings, BGC, the paying of dues and orientation before a card is issued to a new member. Often during the week there is NO ONE there.

On weekends, it is a little busier but never crowded. I usually will shoot at the pistol range which has 25, 50, 15 and 7yd ranges (from LtoR). sighting center-fire rifles is allowed at the 25 and 50. It is probably the widest range there--I'm guessing 200' wide. Generally, the range is always assumed "HOT" and I'll note if there are any shooters along the entire length and also walking to or at the targets (which would mean "COLD"). Most everyone is polite and I'll unload my car and get my guns ready while an existing shooter ends their string.

When they are done I'll often hear "Do you want to go cold?" to which I'll reply "yes, let's go COLD", and they will repeat "going COLD" while backing away from the firing line. Then I/we will set up targets and once everyone is back behind the firing line, one of us will say "Can we go HOT" and we will wait for EVERYONE to say "going HOT" at which point the range is hot. Sometimes because of the width of the range I'll walk to the shooter on the other side so I don't have to yell and sometimes to see what they're shooting.

I don't think I've ever had an issue with anyone at my range. I've seen guys shooting faster than 1sec between shots at the pistol range but their groups were tight and when they were done I reminded them that if any of the club elders heard them they would probably yell at them. "That's what the plinking range is for." Although my ID says I'm an RSO, and I'm supposed to be "on duty" all the time, I don't let it go to my head. Some of the others get off on it and wear their RSO hat or shirt when casually shooting (ie: no comp event or public day).

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What's your point? "My range is better than your range?" The nearest private club to me is an hour away. And they are OFFICIALLY opposed to concealed carry. They don't allow it. So that was a deal breaker for me, as I considered joining despite the distance. On principle alone, I could not join a Fudd club.

Your club apparently prohibits rapid fire (by your comment). Fudds! That would be another deal breaker for me. My local outdoor range is run by the state, so they also prohibit it. I disagree, but it's the state, sooooo. But a local indoor range allows it (as long as you're hitting the target). If I was considering to be in a private club, such a prohibition (rapid fire) would be a deal-breaker, as well.

For some of us the only choice is a public range. This one is very close to where I live. Super-convenient. And the RSOs run a tight ship. They do a great job, actually. The problem isn't the range. The problem is that some people are utterly oblivious to BASIC safety rules. And that can happen anywhere. The REAL point of my post is that "we are all RSOs" and we should call dangerous people out.

Assholes are everywhere. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that even your club has one or two.

I'd love to join a private club... that is reasonably close.... and isn't run by Fudds.

 

[Bobster]

What's your point? "My range is better than your range?"

YUP! (jk)

No, that was not my point. I guess it was that in my private range, we all are safety conscious but polite. I feel sorry you don't have an outdoor private range you can join. Mine is 1/2 hour away.

Conversely, if I wanted to go to a public outdoor range, I would travel to Strickland in Daytona, also about 1/2 hour away. They close at 5pm though and I've been at my range at close to 9pm on a number of occasions in the summertime (we close at sundown)...

And I haven't mentioned indoor ranges. It has been well over a decade since I've been in one of those... I think the nearest is Academy in Lake Mary, FL.

 

[Racer88]

I submit that regardless of the venue (including private clubs), there WILL be someone who is oblivious to the rules. At this range, you have to watch a video and sign off before you're allowed to shoot there. The video covers all the cold / hot range rules. Nevertheless... some moron will be oblivious. And when there are egos involved, things can get squirrely.

 

[Bobster]

@Racer88
PS: the Plinking range allows full-auto fire and/or mag dumps. It is right next to the pistol range so technically, one should just move over to it if they want to shoot faster than 1sec between shots. The problem with the Plinking range is there are no backstops, only a berm. So one would have to bring their own target stand. What is often done is people will throw clay pigeons up onto the berm and shoot at them or at beverage cans, etc. along the railroad ties at the base of the berm.

 

[Racer88]

the Plinking range allows full-auto fire and/or mag dumps. It is right next to the pistol range so technically, one should just move over to it if they want to shoot faster than 1sec between shots.

1 sec between shots is STUPID.

Yeah, the reason I practice rapid fire is not just to make noise.... shooting at tin cans. It's defensive shooting practice, at a silhouette or preferably one of my 3D torso targets, which are cool.

 

[FrankenGlock]

It’s hard to train when you have to wait seconds between shots. Especially annoying when it is meant for inexperienced shooters that can’t stay on target.

 

[bkbrno]

The last and final time I went to a range open to the public this happened.

Most of the lanes are taken. I set up to the left of a guy shooting semi auto also. With nothing more than a knowing nod, we take turns shooting so we down get hot brass in the face. Worked out great. I noticed an old fudd in the far left lane. What I noticed most was the scowl and disdain when he saw semi-autos on "his" range. He is shooting a bolt action and taking 1 shot about every 10 minutes with at least several minutes of aligning his sights before shooting. Whatever. The guy to my right finishes up and leaves. Fudd moves all his stuff down next to me on my right. We are the only two at this range now. Why did he feel the need to move next to me? I make sure to tell him I'm shooting semi-auto and will be chucking brass his way. He just glares at me. Keep in mind, I'm paying by the hour. He settles in and spends a good ten minutes staring at his sights not shooting. I was trying to be courteous but I've had enough at this point. I announce loudly to him that I'm going hot and watch for hot brass. My Right Arm of the Free World launches spent cases perfectly at 3-4 o'clock, six feet away. Fudd curses at me, marches over to the RSO and pitches a fit. RSO asks me to be nicer. I explain the details of this jackass's move and I don't intend to be courteous if he is not returning the favor. I finished up what I was doing and left, never to return.

 

[Racer88]

The last and final time I went to a range open to the public this happened.

Most of the lanes are taken. I set up to the left of a guy shooting semi auto also. With nothing more than a knowing nod, we take turns shooting so we down get hot brass in the face. Worked out great. I noticed an old fudd in the far left lane. What I noticed most was the scowl and disdain when he saw semi-autos on "his" range. He is shooting a bolt action and taking 1 shot about every 10 minutes with at least several minutes of aligning his sights before shooting. Whatever. The guy to my right finishes up and leaves. Fudd moves all his stuff down next to me on my right. We are the only two at this range now. Why did he feel the need to move next to me? I make sure to tell him I'm shooting semi-auto and will be chucking brass his way. He just glares at me. Keep in mind, I'm paying by the hour. He settles in and spends a good ten minutes staring at his sights not shooting. I was trying to be courteous but I've had enough at this point. I announce loudly to him that I'm going hot and watch for hot brass. My Right Arm of the Free World launches spent cases perfectly at 3-4 o'clock, six feet away. Fudd curses at me, marches over to the RSO and pitches a fit. RSO asks me to be nicer. I explain the details of this jackass's move and I don't intend to be courteous if he is not returning the favor. I finished up what I was doing and left, never to return.

Sounds like he moved to your right specifically to set himself up as the "victim."

 

[bkbrno]

Sounds like he moved to your right specifically to set himself up as the "victim."

Maybe, but I think he was just being an ass. He did it to make a scene because he didn't like kids with semi-autos. Except I was a mid thirties adult with a thousand dollar rifle, shooting slow for accuracy. He looked to be 80 years old so I guess I was a kid to him.

I've come across his type many times. This guy got some hot brass across the bow for his efforts. I guess most give in to his game. I didn't. I did find a private range where people like him were not allowed and run out if they pulled stunts like this.

 

[Bobster]

1 sec between shots is STUPID.

The rule is there to save the 4x4 posts between the backstops AND to keep shots from flying over the berm--ie: noobs operating past their skill level. Note the "X". So all that gets replaced on the regular (about once a month) is the wood the target gets stapled to. Even then, a few months back some A-hole(s) shot a 4x4 in half. Deliberately...



When I'm there by myself I shoot as fast as I feel like. But as I've become more "seasoned", mag dumps have lost their charm...

 

[Alex]

My range sounds like Bobster's except my local wildlife is jackrabbits & rattlesnake vs. alligators and flamingos.

 

[Racer88]

The rule is there to save the 4x4 posts between the backstops AND to keep shots from flying over the berm--ie: noobs operating past their skill level. Note the "X". So all that gets replaced on the regular (about once a month) is the wood the target gets stapled to. Even then, a few months back some A-hole(s) shot a 4x4 in half. Deliberately...

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When I'm there by myself I shoot as fast as I feel like. But as I've become more "seasoned", mag dumps have lost their charm...

I have no idea what you're talking about there, sorry. But when I'm talking about rapid fire, it's with the assumption that you're actually hitting the target. So, I don't see a problem with that. And it's not about "mag dumps" or other clowning around. It's got nothing to do with "charm." I'm talking about deliberate rapid fire for defensive training / practice.

"Hold on there, Mr. Bad Guy. Quit moving! I'm only allowed to shoot your one time per second!"

See? It's stupid.

At the local state-run outdoor range, it's one shot per TWO seconds! But I wouldn't expect such stupidity at a PRIVATE club range.

 

[Caleb]

How dare you say something to that well mannered peaceful man that heard the range was hot!

 

[Bobster]

But I wouldn't expect such stupidity at a PRIVATE club range.

With a PUBLIC range (and these are assumptions, not having been to one since the 1990s), you sign in, pay your $, listen to the RO's instructions and commands, do your thing, pack up your gear, go home. I did NOT see any "320" restrictions at the Strickland range posted above. DISCLAIMER: I am unable to verify this due to "403" from the website, probably due to updating on a Saturday night. This LINK will give you a brief description of the range. Plus, THEY HAVE FANS! (ie: the kind that blow air, not the "only" kind--I suppose this is a Florida joke! ) Context: fans are NICE when the 80° air is still and it is 95% humidity at the firing line...

As I've become more involved with my PRIVATE club the past couple years, the politics have become apparent. Not something you will see or notice at a PUBLIC range. There are a group of guys that are "slow" shooters (ie: ARA, Service Rifle, Silhouette) that happen to be club officers. So they do not see the "need" for one to develop rapid-fire skills and view it as a "range-damaging/safety-issue". I wouldn't necessarily label them as "fudds" but that is where they are. They don't participate in the rapid fire events such as Action Pistol (steel plate shooting) and the "new" Defensive Carbine match (described below). BUT, as a private club, the members HAVE voted in the affirmative to allow such activities to be held on our "Special Use" range noting that the officers voted in the negative. Meaning they were out-voted. That is how Action Pistol came to be and now Defensive Carbine. I don't involve myself in the politics as I am friendly with the club president as he "recruited" me to become a FWC Instructor to help with the required (by the county) field events the club sponsors once/twice a month during hunting season. But there is and can be a lot of head-butting at meetings...

The second Defensive Carbine match occurred yesterday, Saturday the 30th. Organized by Mitch and assisted by Chris and "Big" Chris, it occurs every 5th Saturday when there is one. The next will be Thanksgiving weekend. This one was just a repeat of the course-of-fire of the first which occured in May. Free to members, guests are $15. I don't know why they don't just make it $20 because the lack of a $5 bill for change is an issue in this cash-free society. Kudos to Mitch for developing and organizing the match.

The first match of DC it was off and on rain and began at 8am. This second one began a little earlier at 7:30 to escape the heat. At 7am when the pics below were taken, it was about 75° and 95% humidity (note the fog). Although it warmed up, the humidity decreased but it was still moist. Targets shot at (and not yet stapled) were NRA 25yd slow-fire which apparently Mitch has a pallet full of. Anything in the black and red is a "hit", anything outside of the black is +1 second, off the paper is +5 seconds. We pulled numbers from a hat to determine firing order. I was #3 out of about 15 shooters.

The course-of-fire consists of 3 consecutive "stages" although the walk from the first and second is not timed. First stage is about 20' and consists of 3 shots on each target, mag change, then 2 and then 1 on each target (total 12rds) with a mag drop as you walk to the second stage. Second stage is 10 shots from the strong shoulder at the target on that side of the barrels, change mag, then 10 from the weak shoulder at the target on the other side of the barrels, targets are about 15yds away. Then a mag change for the third stage which one can kneel and use the barrel for support if desired. That target is about 30yds away.

Once everyone has run through once, a shooter can go again with the same or different rifle. With the AR-9 I did OK with an aggregate of 1:25min. Breaking out the 15-22 for my second time through, I smoked the course with an aggregate 0:59 and only 3 off-blacks (ie: +3sec). This was the best time of the day when I left (early). Someone commented something to the effect of "too bad it won't penetrate body armor" (ie: 22LR) to which I replied "I'm not aiming at center-of-mass, I'm aiming at the neck!"

And while I did leave early, I also helped cut and staple new cardboard to the sticks while waiting to shoot my second time. Mitch brought a large box from a garden shed specifically for this purpose. Shooter-involved maintenance would probably NEVER occur at a public range because the shooters don't really have a say or ownership in it.

@Racer88 Keeping in mind your bad experience with competitions, you have a standing offer from me to attend any of the matches I go to and I will pay your entry fee. This is thanks for you establishing and running this forum.

 

[Racer88]

@Racer88 Keeping in mind your bad experience with competitions, you have a standing offer from me to attend any of the matches I go to and I will pay your entry fee. This is thanks for you establishing and running this forum.

Thanks. But I'm not interested in organized competition. I'm not interested in being able to rapid fire only under the auspices of the competition environment with officials looking over my shoulder. I just want to shoot.... as I see fit for whatever practice or training I've got in mind.

It would seem, by your own description, your range is very much a "Fudd" range where the only acceptable context of shooting is either formal slow-fire bullseye or within the confines of competition rules. That's just not for me. They don't trust me. So, I don't trust them. I know EXACTLY the kind of people you described. They are not my kind of people, and I'm not their kind of people. That's just how it is.

I understand the need for actual safety rules. And I understand the need to qualify new members to determine / confirm their skill level. I am quite certain that I can pass any test with flying colors. But once a member has proven he or she can be safe and hit the target, there should not be any restrictions on rate of fire.

And if they don't respect concealed carry, then it's definitely a Fudd range that is not for me.

 

[Racer88]

Oops I did it again!

I went back to the range today (pistols). And I yelled at another shooter!

So, the range went cold. Before they go cold, the RSOs routinely say, "If you need anything from the bench, like a target, get it now." And then they declare the line cold. Immediately after declaring the line cold, the RSOs routinely say, "Do not approach the bench for any reason."

Sure enough... after the line was cold... One clown decided to go back to the bench, and the RSO barked at him to get off the bench. And he backed off. So, that was the SECOND time the RSO has announced that shooters should NOT approach the bench while the line is cold.

Literally 2 minutes later, the SAME guy is BACK at the bench (out of sight of the RSO). And I have to say that it was pure reflex for me, and I couldn't help myself. It just came out! I yelled, "Get off the fucking bench!" LOL! I really did! Dude moved quickly and apologized. THREE times, he's been told to not approach the bench.

But holy shit.... He did it AGAIN within 2 minutes of the 2nd time (and being told to step away by the RSO). These are grown-ass men! But they act like elementary students with the attention span of a squirrel running through a wind chime store. This happens every single time I go to the range. But I've only recently decided to be vocal. The RSOs have told me that it's good and that all shooters should say something if they see something. "If something bad happens, we can't go back."