MRDS optics: Chinese vs the rest.

Racer88

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I'm copying this from another thread on a different topic... and I thought it deserved its own thread. @Bongo Lewi

On that note: Holosun (which was funded by and is majority owned by the CCP) was caught stealing IP from Trijicon and settled. I wouldn't piss on a Holosun optic if it was on fire.

BTW: Swampfox suggests they are a Colorado company. Wrong. They are Chinese and also make optics equipment for the ChiCom defense industry.

Burris is owned by Beretta. Vortex makes its lower-end optics in the Philippines. Aimpoint is Swiss, Steiner is German. Crimson Trace is owned by S&W. I'm ok with that. I lean toward Viridian, Leupold, Trijicon. I'll pay a little more to not feed the enemy.

I really like my Holosun 507 optics. Mind you, my first pistol optic was the venerated / gold standard Trijicon RMR. Purchased MANY years ago, when there was little to no competition. Paid $575 for that sucker! It's still mounted on my HD pistol.
FNP-45T-Home-Defense.jpg


I have to say... regardless of the price, the Holosun is BETTER. A LOT better. While conceding that the Trijicon is more robust in its construction and would likely fare better in harsh battlefield conditions... The Holosun is WAY better in terms of features and usability. I'm not planning to be on any battlefields or rolling around in the mud and rocks. Though, the Holosun 507 is decently robust, IMO.
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It does stink a bit, knowing Holosun's lineage. Sigh. I DO get your point on that. I would rather buy American, for sure. But it is what it is. I like the optic, and there is nothing else on the market that compares, feature-wise, at any price.

I didn't buy the Holosuns because they were cheaper (though not cheap!) I bought them because (IMO), they're better.

If Trijicon would catch back up technology and feature-wise, I'd be willing to spend the extra $$$. I'd love a Trijicon with multiple reticle options, models with a green LED option, side-loading battery, bigger window, "shake-awake," etc.
 
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I hope they dont have malware inside (joking here) that if and when we fight China the optics wont go dark and stop working all of sudden.
 
I hope they dont have malware inside (joking here) that if and when we fight China the optics wont go dark and stop working all of sudden.
The new Holosun "smart optic" responds to voice commands!

During home invasion...

"Holosun... eliminate threat."

It would pair well with my Roomba Claymore Edition.
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BTW, I think the Vulcan ACSS reticle (available on the Holosun 507c) is a "game changer." It's like training wheels for "finding the dot." And it works a charm!

From Holosun's marketing:
Holosun-Vulcan-ACSS.jpg


On my EDC (PFC9):
PFC9-with-Holosun-507C-ACSS.jpg


And my own infographic demonstrating how it works:
Vulcan-ACSS-Reticle-Demo.jpg


Trijicon needs to "get with the program." :)
 
About 'shake awake': Unless the bearer sits motionless for hours on end, the sight is always on. Modern red dots can get 30-50 thousand hours from a battery. Is it really a major differentiator? I suspect the backstory for many really is... the gun sits in the safe except for the two times a year the guy goes to the range. In that case, I suppose auto-off or shake awake makes sense. But why put an optic on a gun you hardly ever shoot?

I have a six-year-old Burris Fastfire II red dot on a G35 that is by no means up to today's RDS standards. It has an old-school on-off switch. It still has the original battery in it. No idea how many operating hours, but I regularly shot that pistol in pin matches and a few IDPA matches. At that time I put about 2000 rounds a month thru that gun with the optic in practice drills. Being a longslide, it was never my EDC.

I concede that "Horosun" knows what consumers like. Gadgetry. And their marketing is very good. Example... solar cells. In case some gun owner is in the bright sun and the five-dollar battery he forgot to change for three years is dead - and he never learned how to shoot with iron sights. :) Better hope the bad guy is a British gentleman who offers you five seconds to aim in return for your gallantry.

Since I'm waxing...

I was an early adopter of red dots. They are great for taking longer shots with a pistol. Also ideal for CQB on an SBR or similar long gun if you are in that line of work. They are helpful if your eyesight isn't as good as it used to be. But there is one thing about these optics that is undeniable. They are useless in short-range self-defense, armed assault scenarios. Same as lasers. In an armed assault... say a knife or gun, the victim will likely be dead before he acquires the dot and puts it on the target. You point the gun in that scenario, not aim. No violent bad guy sends a memo. You often have two seconds or less to draw and fire. That's how long it takes a bad guy 20 feet away to close that distance.

The chances of suddenly needing to take a long shot and eliminate a mass shooter in a shopping mall at 30 yards, while he is shooting at you or others is about the same as being hit by lightning or in a plane crash. Twice.

Red dots are also awesome at the range and on a race gun. It improves just about everyone's accuracy. Self-defense? The value is questionable. The red dot really shines on a pistol when you need to take a shot 20 yards out or more. It's not too hard to ring steel at 100 yards with a decent full-size pistol if you practice enough.
 
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BTW, I think the Vulcan ACSS reticle (available on the Holosun 507c) is a "game changer." It's like training wheels for "finding the dot." And it works a charm!

From Holosun's marketing:
View attachment 9903

On my EDC (PFC9):
View attachment 9901

And my own infographic demonstrating how it works:
View attachment 9902

Trijicon needs to "get with the program." :)
They should call that feature Feng Shui. I am reminded of those times when a new couch or chair arrives and my wife has me move it five times. :)
 
About 'shake awake': Unless the bearer sits motionless for hours on end, the sight is always on. Modern red dots can get 30-50 thousand hours from a battery. Is it really a major differentiator? I suspect the backstory for many really is... the gun sits in the safe except for the two times a year the guy goes to the range. In that case, I suppose auto-off or shake awake makes sense. But why put an optic on a gun you hardly ever shoot?
I have two EDCs, depending on my attire. One is a pocket gun (for dress slacks and shirt) - S&W 642 Airweight. The other is (now) my PFC9 with the optic. For many years I carried a Glock 27 with "big dot" iron sights.

The point being that my optic-equipped EDC spends some days in the safe. And of course, both EDCs are not being worn while I sleep. The ACSS Vulcan reticle (with the circle activated) draws more power. Reportedly, quite a bit more power. So, while it's in the safe, the auto-off does extend the battery life. Eventually, I may turn off the outer circle.

I concede that "Horosun" knows what consumers like. Gadgetry. And their marketing is very good. Example... solar cells.
Yeah... I'm not sure what real value is offered by the solar panel. But it's there. And it's not a liability.

I was an early adopter of red dots. They are great for taking longer shots with a pistol. Also ideal for CQB on an SBR or similar long gun if you are in that line of work. They are helpful if your eyesight isn't as good as it used to be. But there is one thing about these optics that is undeniable. They are useless in short-range self-defense, armed assault scenarios.
At 59 years old, my eyesight is NOT what it used to be. I DO have difficulty focusing on a front sight.

I certainly am not suggesting that optics OR iron sights are useful in short-range SD scenarios. See below...

In an armed assault... say a knife or gun, the victim will likely be dead before he acquires the dot and puts it on the target. You point the gun in that scenario, not aim.
As one who has trained for 3 solid days (2 separate courses) on threat-focused / instinctive / point shooting, I certainly agree with that. But in that situation (which is MOST SD situations), iron sights are EQUALLY useless. But, we have'em, eh?

The chances of suddenly needing to take a long shot and eliminate a mass shooter in a shopping mall at 30 yards, while he is shooting at you or others is about the same as being hit by lightning or in a plane crash. Twice.
The probabilities are small. But the stakes are HIGH. The probability of me being in ANY lethal threat situation are almost infinitesimally small. But the stakes, if it does happen, are very high.

I will admit the Dicken / Indiana mall incident opened my eyes and influenced my subsequent decisions on my carry piece and the optic.

The bottom line is that having an optic on my SD pistol presents ZERO tactical liabilities. There is no downside. And in certain situations, an optic can prove to be a significant asset.

Red dots are also awesome at the range on a race gun. It improves just about everyone's accuracy. Self-defense? The value is questionable.

It's only questionable if you make certain (incorrect, IMO) assumptions, which is that if you have an optic, you HAVE to use it in all situations. At my most recent threat-focused defensive shooting course, I used my optic-equipped EDC pistol. I didn't use the optic. But it was there, presenting zero downside. And the other participants with iron sight equipped pistols.... didn't use the irons.

The argument against red dots in close quarters is equally applicable to iron sights. If you want to survive, you better be FAST. And if you want to be fast, you better know how to shoot instinctively (in close quarters). Iron sights are not faster than point / instinctive shooting. Ask me how I know. :)

The real advantage of MRDS is the ability to threat-focus while maintaining the accuracy of a using a sight. Once you know how to do it (training and practice), it is FAST. And I do believe it's applicable at "medium" self-defense scenarios.
 
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I subscribe to the Jim Cirillo school of defensive shooting. I consider him the Yoda of gunfighting outside of military circles. Combat as I'm sure most of us know is a horse of a different color. We can probably all agree typical range shooting bears no similarity to defensive shooting. IDPA matches sort of scratch the surface. But no one is shooting back, stabbing, or punching you.

Cirillo's technique is all about coarse aiming (some, including me incorrectly call pointing) when the SHTF in a gunfight or armed assault. Speed is everything, accuracy (shooting tight groups) is not. The front sight factors pretty significantly into Cirillo's technique. I agree with him that the most likely scenario is in a convenience store or similar establishment, a vehicle, or a parking lot. Maybe your home.

I mostly agree that in the hands of a well-trained gun owner, there's little downside to pistol gizmos, other than they add bulk to the firearm and print a little more than one without. My EDC is a Hellcat. Optics ready, but I prefer to carry it without the RDS. I do have the slightly larger Hellcat Pro with the factory HEX RDS on it. It's excellent. Most of my race and target pistols also have the latest optics.

However... one downside to the RDS is that Joe Average buys a gun with an optic. Or a laser. He never learns to shoot without it. He has zero self-defense training and goes to the range only now and then. This is the typical gun owner. They will most likely carry him out feet first from the 7-11 that was being robbed when he unknowingly walked in.

Most gun owners are Fredo. Rattled and fumbling for the gun while the Godfather gets ventilated by bad guys buying oranges at the local market.

I have my own theory, based on 25 years of observing gun owners of every ilk. Others who are very skilled have disagreed with me. I'm fine with that. But the most vigorous arguers on this topic were never in a gunfight or any sort of armed assault.

Here are the principles of my theory relevant to the subject of pistol optics.
  1. Simply owning a gun creates a potentially dangerous false sense of security with many gun buyers.
  2. In the absence of regular self-defense training and practice, which almost no one does, depending on pistol optics and lasers for self-defense may get you killed.
  3. Unless you are highly skilled, co-witness iron sights with a red dot are non-functional on a pistol.
I'll rest by stating that the reason I still have a pulse is a direct result of the time and money I spent on defensive shooting training. It's not a one-and-done sort of thing. You have to constantly practice the techniques. We all get rusty.
 
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However... one downside to the RDS is that Joe Average buys a gun with an optic. Or a laser. He never learns to shoot without it. He has zero self-defense training and goes to the range only now and then. This is the typical gun owner.
Hell, most of them never really learn to shoot, regardless of equipment or accessories.
First shooter is at 10 yards. Second shooter's target is at 7 yards. And they're missing the paper! With a laser. Both shooters were during my range session. One to my left. One to my right.

View: https://rumble.com/v1eg0dx-you-can-miss-with-a-laser.html

They will most likely carry him out feet first from the 7-11 that was being robbed when he unknowingly walked in.
Maybe. What is perhaps amazing is that the VAST majority of successful DGUs involve citizens JUST like you describe... no training, no practice, and a minimum of familiarity with firearms and defensive shooting. A lot of "luck" involved, I suppose.

Simply owning a gun creates a potentially dangerous false sense of security with many gun buyers.
Similarly, owning a piano does not make one a musician. :) I agree.

In the absence of regular self-defense training and practice, which almost no one does, depending on pistol optics and lasers for self-defense may get you killed.
In the absence of training and practice, depending on the front sight (which is just another aiming gizmo) may get you killed. Depending on the ammo may get you killed. Depending on any part or the whole of the gun may get you killed..... in the absence of the knowledge on how to use it.

Depending on auto-pilot to fly the plane can get a person who doesn't know how to fly... killed.

unless you are highly skilled, co-witness iron sights with a red dot are non-functional on a pistol.
I agree.... I believe the notion of "co-witness" is a crutch to justify an otherwise poor argument to have an optic.

The real "co-witness" or "back-up" for a failed optic is really just the empty window itself.

Similarly, the arguments against optics based on predicted failure are equally weak and unsubstantiated. Buy a quality optic. Change your battery regularly before the fairly predictable failure timeline. Done and done.

If it wasn't for the perceived legal liability and consternation of our fellow "gunnies", I would prefer to not have iron sights at all on my optic-equipped defensive pistol. In fact, that's what I have planned for a RANGE-ONLY G17L build that I have "on deck." I found a "plug" for the front sight hole, but I cannot find a similar plug for the rear-sight dovetail on the slide.

BTW, front iron sights can fail, too. They can come loose and fly off the pistol. It happens.

You have to constantly practice the techniques. We all get rusty.
Practice AND training (different things). Unfortunately, most gun owners get very little of either. That's for sure.
 
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Great discussion, by the way! Though it's already veered from the topic of "Chinese vs." LOL!
 
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Indeed. It did get off topic a bit. My fault. Allow me one last wander:

"Depending on auto-pilot to fly the plane can get a person who doesn't know how to fly... killed."

I confess that I once flew a Cessna 150 from a small mom and pop airpark near Baltimore to a regional airport in the Finger Lakes by myself. After two lessons. No FAA license, no flight plan. I did it to impress a girl. It worked.
 
The probabilities are small. But the stakes are HIGH. The probability of me being in ANY lethal threat situation are almost infinitesimally small. But the stakes, if it does happen, are very high.
When you need them the most, here are things in life that you're in control of that you will wish you have.
1. Seat belt / harness
2. Firearm
3. Fire Extinguisher
4. Parachute
 
When you need them the most, here are things in life that you're in control of that you will wish you have.
1. Seat belt / harness
2. Firearm
3. Fire Extinguisher
4. Parachute
I’ll add cordage to that..it’s an amazing all purpose life saving item. Don’t leave home without it.😊
 
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