How many rounds do you need (for self-defense)?

[Bongo Lewi]

Look it up.

It's hard to look up an opinion. Zero genuine statistical data. Figures lie and liars figure as Mark Twain said. There is no reliable source.

I dont disagree with the philosophy of good guy with a gun. I question the fantasy of a good guy with a gun.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I've been on gun forums for about 30 years. It's extremely rare to see that. And when they do... They get shouted down quickly by the majority sane people.

Bullshit. It's everywhere. Is it a majority? Probably not. But it is pervasive.

It is possible to be so far right you are actually left. Meaning, the truth no longer matters - as it does with liberals. The fascists of the late 20's and 30's were considered liberals by the status quo. Today, conservatives are accused of being fascist. Fascinating.

 

[Warhammer]

My $0.02... The most amateurish, dangerous gun handling I've ever seen at gun ranges has been from cops. Lack of discipline, lack of practice and a "I'm the only one qualified..." attitude are a bad combination. I have walked out of gun ranges and left due to "professionals" (i.e.: cops) making it too dangerous to stay. IMO, there are a few cops who are true firearms experts, but the vast majority of them are less competent with a gun than almost anyone else at any given shooting range.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

My $0.02... The most amateurish, dangerous gun handling I've ever seen at gun ranges has been from cops. Lack of discipline, lack of practice and a "I'm the only one qualified..." attitude are a bad combination. I have walked out of gun ranges and left due to "professionals" (i.e.: cops) making it too dangerous to stay. IMO, there are a few cops who are true firearms experts, but the vast majority of them are less competent with a gun than almost anyone else at any given shooting range.

Yep. Because they are average people. A lot of cops are Barney Fifes. Always have been.

This phenomenon can be misleading. Some low budget police departments use ranges for training.

Enthusiasts make up a good portion of regularly attending range shooters. That's nowhere near the number of gun owners. Not even close. Ranges often function like a club. The same people there all the time. Mixed in with that group is the majority who are infrequent or even one time range shooters. Especially urban or suburban ranges. They attract a lot of dipshits who just want to shoot guns.

My experience in many, many ranges is I see the same half dozen or so people there all the time. The rest are transient and some goofballs. My current ranges are more rural and regulars dominate. But the numbers of members are low.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

@Warhammer I should have added that when I had a Fed badge I could walk into any county or state police training facility and get a day pass. I was overseas a lot and didnt do that often, but I can testify that a lot of the men I met there and a few women were hardcore. A lot of the men were combat vets from Iraq or Afghanistan. Guys who were kicking in doors and turning towel heads into pink mist. A lot of them were SWAT team members. These cops were not a bunch of pussies with sociology degrees who dont know how to handle a weapon.

 

[Racer88]

It's hard to look up an opinion. Zero genuine statistical data.

I used to have the reference at hand... but I can't find it. But I recall that LEOs had about a 20% hit rate. And I recall that about 5X the number of bystanders were hit by LE compared to citizens.

Figures lie and liars figure as Mark Twain said. There is no reliable source.

It's easy to use that as a cudgel in a debate.
So even if I had references, you'd dismiss them automatically.

I dont disagree with the philosophy of good guy with a gun. I question the fantasy of a good guy with a gun.

You can question the exceptions represented by a minuscule minority, if that's how you want to spend your time and intellectual assets.

Bullshit. It's everywhere. Is it a majority? Probably not. But it is pervasive.

As I said... I'm going with over 30 years on gun forums... since LONG before Algore invented the interwebz. It's hardly "pervasive."

IMO, there are a few cops who are true firearms experts, but the vast majority of them are less competent with a gun than almost anyone else at any given shooting range.

Before we had a public outdoor range, the local county sheriff's range was open to the public 1 or 2 times a month. The range was run, of course, by that sheriff's department, including all the RSOs. Since they didn't advertise it AND it was run by LE, it was mostly regulars. The riff-raff avoided it, I'm sure, because of the LE presence. It was actually quite nice! The LEO-RSOs there regularly talked about how we were all much better marksmen than them.

A lot of them were SWAT team members. These cops were not a bunch of pussies with sociology degrees who dont know how to handle a weapon.

SWAT is one thing. We're talking about rank and file garden variety flatfoots on the street. I've had occasion to talk with many local LEOs. Most departments give them 1 box of ammo a month for practice. And most officers are not willing to practice any more than that on their own dime. I'm going through 5 - 6 boxes a month on average, and I consider that light.

 

[Racer88]

I turned this into its own thread.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

A closer look at police officers who have fired their weapon on duty

About a quarter of all officers say they have ever fired their service weapon while on the job. Are some more likely than others to have fired their weapon in the line of duty?

www.pewresearch.org

Why some cops are not good marksmen. Same reason most civilians aren’t good marksmen. They never shoot the gun.

If there were a similar survey of civilian gun owners I’m certain it would reveal that they are equally incompetent.

Even hunters. Anybody who seriously hunts knows there are hunters then there are nimrods walking around the woods with guns. Ask a Ranger/Wildlife cop how many times they bust hunters who have been drinking. There are 14 million hunters in the USA. Most are responsible. In my observation far more than handgun owners. Because nobody buys hunting rifles and gear or buys a license because it’s cool.

I have likened shooting to golf many times. Lots of people doing it but most suck. Practice, training and natural skill make one a good golfer. They are a minority. Same as handgun owners. It’s an illusion that a majority of gun owners are skilled. Especially in defensive tactics.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

What if you need to cut down a tree?

Anyhow, what Racer said. Granted, one standard capacity 9mm mag will probably have enough rounds to take out a dozen thugs with well-aimed shots...

PS: with a .45 and one mag, you might have to get creative with your aim--ie: 1S2Ks

I suppose so. If you come across a platoon of zombies. Because that happens.

 

[Warhammer]

I think what makes this issue stick in the craw of many gun owners is how often the left tries to tell us that only cops "are qualified" or "have the training" to be safe with guns. That's just not true. In fact, it's downright gaslighting. The majority of the cops I've seen at ranges were simply not great with their guns. But I've had several experiences where the cops were outright dangerous and negligent. On top of that, they were arrogant about their "expertise", despite their obvious incompetence.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I think what makes this issue stick in the craw of many gun owners is how often the left tries to tell us that only cops "are qualified" or "have the training" to be safe with guns. That's just not true. In fact, it's downright gaslighting. The majority of the cops I've seen at ranges were simply not great with their guns. But I've had several experience where the cops were outright dangerous and negligent. On top of that, they were arrogant about their "expertise", despite their obvious incompetence.

It's not just a liberal thing. Most of us were taught from a very young age to respect and obey police... that they are here to protect us. Cops are dominant figures in the culture. Film and literature and have celebrated them for a very long time. For the most part, they have been portrayed as heroes. Even when portrayed as corrupt and evil, those 'crooked' cops are represented as the bad guys who are defeated in the third act.

Reality is, as you wrote, they are not always skilled, ethical, or pillars of the community. I would compare cops to jurors. Many of them are idiots. The reason for that is most of society are idiots. A jury of our peers as they say. Cops are drawn from the same pool - us. Low IQ bullies are drawn to the job. Just like how firebugs want to be firefighters and pedophiles seek opportunities to be scout leaders. Or clergy. Cops can also be heroic, ethical, moral and empathetic. Nothing is black and white, good or bad. As badly as some want it to be that simple. The world is gray and mostly chaotic.

 

[BeerHunter]

It's not just a liberal thing. Most of us were taught from a very young age to respect and obey police... that they are here to protect us. Cops are dominant figures in the culture. Film and literature and have celebrated them for a very long time. For the most part, they have been portrayed as heroes. Even when portrayed as corrupt and evil, those 'crooked' cops are represented as the bad guys who are defeated in the third act.

Reality is, as you wrote, they are not always skilled, ethical, or pillars of the community. I would compare cops to jurors. Many of them are idiots. The reason for that is most of society are idiots. A jury of our peers as they say. Cops are drawn from the same pool - us. Low IQ bullies are drawn to the job. Just like how firebugs want to be firefighters and pedophiles seek opportunities to be scout leaders. Or clergy. Cops can also be heroic, ethical, moral and empathetic. Nothing is black and white, good or bad. As badly as some want it to be that simple. The world is gray and mostly chaotic.

This, most definitely!

Most of the "regulars" I see at the ranges I frequent are pretty good marksmen and exhibit safe gun handling. However, on any given range trip, it's the non-regulars, (citizen or LEO) that one really has to watch carefully and I've seen some really unsafe and downright scary behavior with firearms!

I expect that the entirety of the LEO community are much like every segment of society and society tends to ascribe to every community the character traits of the loud ones everyone sees! However, there are enough LEOs that exhibit character traits of low IQ arrogant bullies, often "claiming" authority over everyone else in any situation, not just legitimate law enforcement situations. It is these LEOs that usually know much less about the law, firearms, or the citizens they're supposed to be serving, giving the rest of the LEO segment a really bad name by betraying the fragile trust society places in them.

 

[Racer88]

Why some cops are not good marksmen. Same reason most civilians aren’t good marksmen. They never shoot the gun.

Yep! Department budgets are often claimed as the reason. Like I said... around here I've been told officers get 1 box of practice ammo per month. They qualify once per year. And any one of us could EASILY pass the qual.

Apathy, a common human trait, is likely another big reason. Cops are not necessarily "gun guys." Many of them see carrying a firearm as a burden required by the job.

If there were a similar survey of civilian gun owners I’m certain it would reveal that they are equally incompetent.

Definitely. My previous point wasn't about general and comparative competence. I had read a study that showed in actual DEFENSIVE shootings, citizens fared better in terms of percentage of rounds on target and innocent bystanders injured.

There are 14 million hunters in the USA. Most are responsible. In my observation far more than handgun owners. Because nobody buys hunting rifles and gear or buys a license because it’s cool.

In most states they require a safety course to get a hunting license. Where I'm originally from, hunting is BIG. When I returned after 11 years overseas (at age 16), I will admit buying a shotgun (designed for hunting) because it was "cool." Everyone had guns. They brought them to school. We had a hunter safety course given AT the school. So I had to have one... to be cool!

I never once shot any wildlife. I hiked through the woods "hunting." But never shot anything.

It’s an illusion that a majority of gun owners are skilled. Especially in defensive tactics.

I don't think anyone believes that or has advanced such an illusion. I've never heard anyone make that claim. But what many of us here take issue with is the ASSUMPTION (or delusion) that cops are automatically deemed THE most competent when it comes to firearms.

I think what makes this issue stick in the craw of many gun owners is how often the left tries to tell us that only cops "are qualified" or "have the training" to be safe with guns. That's just not true.

We DO hear that ALL the time.... from the media... from politicians.... from pop culture.... and it is absolutely believed to be true by the general public. We know better.

It's not just a liberal thing. Most of us were taught from a very young age to respect and obey police... that they are here to protect us. Cops are dominant figures in the culture. Film and literature and have celebrated them for a very long time. For the most part, they have been portrayed as heroes.

Yep. See above. It's a myth held by most of the public regardless of political affiliation.

Most of the "regulars" I see at the ranges I frequent are pretty good marksmen and exhibit safe gun handling. However, on any given range trip, it's the non-regulars, (citizen or LEO) that one really has to watch carefully and I've seen some really unsafe and downright scary behavior with firearms!

I've seen some crazy shit. I've posted some of it here (and on other forums) over the years. One of them (recently) wasn't a police officer but a retired police admin guy. I had to stop him from handling the gun behind the firing line and pointing the gun at me TWICE. You'd think he would have had plenty of access to good firearms instruction since he worked for LE. Apparently not!

And also recently, I posted a story about a range trip where I met a retired LEO who was an AMAZING marksman. So there ya go!

Back on topic, though. I don't understand the AVERSION and OBJECTION of some "firearms advocates and practitioners" to carrying a higher capacity of ammunition. They point to studies and aphorisms suggesting "3, 3, 3" for example. 3 yards, 3 seconds, 3 rounds fired... is the "average" DGU. So fucking what!?!??

I'm not going to train, practice, or prepare for the "average." While the odds of any DGU are quite rare.... the odds are VERY low, but if it DOES happen, the STAKES are very HIGH. The odds of a DGU against multiple assailants is even more remote. But it DOES happen. And it may be at distances longer than the "average" or "typical" or "likely."

If I can carry 36 rounds on me (instead of 15) without any significant inconvenience.... why not?

Speaking of false bravado.... We often hear, "If it takes you more than 7 rounds (1911 capacity), you need better skills," or something to that effect.

I do agree that speed and accuracy should be the focus of training and practice (two different things). But there's no rational or justifiable reason to NOT carry higher capacity, whether it be in the form of the "on-board" capacity of the pistol and/or additional magazines or even a back-up gun.

They say the two loudest sounds you can hear from a gun are a bang when you expected a click and a click when you expected a bang.

 

[no4mk1t]

Yep! Department budgets are often claimed as the reason. Like I said... around here I've been told officers get 1 box of practice ammo per month. They qualify once per year. And any one of us could EASILY pass the qual.

Apathy, a common human trait, is likely another big reason. Cops are not necessarily "gun guys." Many of them see carrying a firearm as a burden required by the job.

I had a co-worker who left to join the local Sheriff's Office. He resigned after a few years and came back to work when he found out they didn't pay a living wage that was sustainable.

He owned personal firearms, but was not what you would call a gun guy. He could load and fire it, but that was it.
So, every 10 years, the Sheriff's Office buys new guns. The Deputies can buy their gun if they choose for (at the time) $200.
In the course of this chat, I asked him how many rounds he figured he had fired through his pistol. It turns out, not many. He said they got the opportunity to practice the day before annual qualification, then qual day. Any other shooting they had to do on their own time with their own ammo. I was quite surprised.

This also illustrates the lack of difficulty in the qualification course for the majority of the Deputies to pass on the first try.
It also meant that the typical Glock service pistol at this dept. was traded in with as little as 500-1000 rounds on it.

A good article on qualification vs. classification.

Shooting Classification vs: Qualification

Found this article giving a little perspective on the difference between shooting classification as awarded by the NRA or other governing body, and qualification as determined by basic military training or LE training. As you will see, there is quite a difference. As can be seen by my avatar, I...

www.patriotgunbuilders.com

 

[Bobster]

In no particular order...

About 5yrs ago I had a 6-7 sheets of plywood, a dozen 2x8s and some hardware I was looking to get out of my way. It was from a warehouse office knockdown. Used but fairly new wood, maybe worth $200 at the time ($1000 now--FJB!). Anything I could get I would be happy with, just to get it out of my way. As with most of my ads, I always indicate I "will trade for ammo". A local lieutenant from a large local dept. (that will remain unnamed ) had a BUNCH of "training" ammo he wanted to trade as he was going to use the wood for a chicken coop. We both know I got a really sweet deal (at the time) with about 300rds of Gold Dot .40 GDHP, 400rds Federal Frangible .223, a half dozen boxes each of 12ga slugs and 12ga buck. I would estimate I doubled my money. Apparently his dept's budget is generous with ammo.

I fell asleep the other night watching this LINK--I was maybe halfway through? It was on gootoob and somehow popped up on my feed... I hadn't noticed any bias on PBS's part but I'm sure they will get to it. While some may be aghast at the concept , some may (quietly) nod their heads in approval because it makes sense. (ie: too many stupid people in this world able to breed!)

The cops I interact with presently (and voluntarily) fall into the "good guy" AND "smart guy" categories.
My neighbor is a stand up dude and has been in the business for decades since he got out of the Marines. He knocked down the bathroom wall at Pulse so they could cap the shooter. Although we don't "hang out" we'll chat every couple months for 20min or so. I happened to notice he and his wife are registered Republicans so that is a good thing.
My FFL is a local LEO and Army vet. Another good guy and definitely a gun guy.
JJ, who runs the "Action Pistol" at my club is another good one. While I was thinking he was a NYC cop/SWAT, he started his career with a NYCish dept, then spent most of his career Miami/Dade. His NYC accent is still very thick! His desire with the AP is to teach skills that might be used in a "situation", not necessarily "quick" skills.

We had an event yesterday (I forgot to take pics ) with a few different stages. First stage was 3 from the hip at an IPSC about 4' away then up to aim at a couple 8" steels 30' away. Next stage was a head-to-head shoot against 2 poppers each with only 6rds in the mag. Although I bested JJ at hitting my poppers first, he won by hosing his so they dropped quicker. Tim (in a wheelchair) challenged me to a seated one-hand duel and he won! Third was breaking in some new plates shooting behind cover and with only 6rds again, shooting 3 on the closest then 3 on the next closest, reload behind cover and so on--there were six plates. 6rds because we had a revolver guy shooting with us...

At a Steel Action shoot in Orlando a few months ago, one of the guys in our group had brought his father along. His dad was a noob. At about the 2nd stage he actually DQ'd his own father for flagging us/handling his (unloaded) gun behind the lines. He took the gun and holster and put them back in the car and his father became a spectator. I talked to him about a month ago and his dad was back and they had been working on safety, manual-of-arms and so on. I think his dad had a 9mm 1911. I don't know how they made out...

 

[Bongo Lewi]

A cop's job is to issue citations and apprehend those who represent a threat to public safety based on the law. Nothing more. It's a soldiers job to kill the enemy. People get this confused. Cops are not soldiers and they have no enemy.

It's also important to remember that cops are people and we are all products of our environment. Some cops are bullies. Some behave like soldiers. Some cops are pussies. Others genuinely care about people and feel a calling to serve the public. I'll take a cop who has empathy for others and shows up for his shit-paying job every day because he or she cares about the people in his or her community. I could give a flying fuck if a cop is a marksman. That's not his or her job.

There's a reason why for 100 years banks and some other businesses have had their own armed security. Because they know cops can't prevent bank robberies or be relied upon to be there when it happens.

The majority of active shooters have been eliminated by cops. Not civilians. Whether they did this well or acted fast enough is another issue altogether.

I believe very firmly that police departments need to have a SWAT capability for when a violent offender deserves a bullet in the head.

Some law enforcement agencies in Europe have got this figured out. They have uniformed cops who deal with everyday shit in the community, detectives and investigators for crime, and trained, quick response tactical teams when there are threats to public safety.... armed crazies, robbers, etc.

To expect Andy Taylor and Barney Fife to know how to deal with a maniac active shooter or to have the skills of special operator is absurd.

 

[brian]

A cop's job is to issue citations and apprehend those who represent a threat to public safety based on the law. Nothing more. It's a soldiers job to kill the enemy. People get this confused. Cops are not soldiers and they have no enemy.

In that same theme, their job is to enforce the law against those who are (and in some cases have) broken the law not those who may break it. It is a reactionary force at best.

There's a reason why for 100 years banks and some other businesses have had their own armed security. Because they know cops can't prevent bank robberies or be relied upon to be there when it happens.

9-11 , when seconds count help is only minutes away. This is why we should EDC - we are our own first responders.

Some law enforcement agencies in Europe have got this figured out.

Not sure if Europe has anything figured out per se. Maybe in a large city setting a rapid response team works. Is "Europe" using these teams to protect the farmlands or just highly populated urban areas? Figuring the latter at best. And if some of the sheeple in the cities in Europe carried, maybe some of the potential crime could be kept in check. I won't model after anything Europe does, quite the opposite.

 

[Racer88]

9-11 , when seconds count help is only minutes away. This is why we should EDC - we are our own first responders.

Even more importantly, even when or IF they (LE) show up, they have ZERO legal duty to save your ass. ZERO. They can legally stand there and watch a bad guy cut you to shreds, shoot you, or rape you... and do NOTHING.

And THAT'S why we're our own 1st responders.

 

[Dave]

I put together a half dozen P80s and a couple of GS9s. That was fun and interesting. I'm in a been there done that frame of mind about doing any more.

You said in a previous post from a month or 2 back that you've built three 80% guns. It was when you were defending that one gun building, radically liberal (but pretending not to be) know it all, Knack, saying OEM internal parts are snake oil.
What's the real number of 80% pistols you've built, bro? 1 maybe 2, you've "done that frame of mind" guy?

Back more on topic, I like semi auto pistols, but I'm more of a revolver guy. I feel comfortable with 6ish reliable rounds of 357, but don't GAF what other people think is needed, because I'm not a liberal know it all, trying to apply my ideas on others.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

You said in a previous post from a month or 2 back that you've built three 80% guns. It was when you were defending that one gun building, radically liberal (but pretending not to be) know it all, Knack, saying OEM internal parts are fish oil.
What's the real number of 80% pistols you've built, bro? 1 maybe 2, you've "done that frame of mind" guy?

Back more on topic, I like semi auto pistols, but I'm more of a revolver guy. I feel comfortable with 6ish reliable rounds of 357, but don't GAF what other people think is needed, because I'm not a liberal know it all, trying to apply my ideas on others.

I wasn't sure and just counted. It's six P80s and four GST-9s. Are you a Fed covertly trolling this forum? I'm not sure why my inventory matters to you.

I'm trying to figure out what your post brings to the discussion but came up with nothing.

I'm in no way liberal. Just not a mindless dumb fuck who hates anybody who doesn't repeat their limited narrative. They exist on both sides of the political spectrum, bro.