BUIS Preference: Rear sight behind or in front of the optics?

[One Ping Only]

Like anything else, there are some passionate arguments for either. RDS is a new game for me, and so I'm kinda ambivalent. There have been some pretty solid experts who say either is fine and it doesn't matter. I'm preparing to buy a new slide with the RDS milling in FDE for a G19. So I'm gleaning as much as I can pre-purchase. I am planning to go with the Vortex Venom as my starter optic, FWIW, which requires the DOC cut. I don't want to use an adapter plate if I don't have to, for streamlining.

At this point, my budget dictates either the FDE PSA Dagger upper, FDE AIM surplus slide, or perhaps Alpha if they offer the right cut and optons in FDE (I haven't looked yet.)

But which BUIS position do you prefer regarding your experiences? Thanks.

 

[Racer88]

I think it just looks weird in front. It seems like a recent fad. Not sure of what the "advantages" are. I'm sure someone will come along who can articulate the advantages / disadvantages.

 

[One Ping Only]

I think it just looks weird in front. It seems like a recent fad. Not sure of what the "advantages" are. I'm sure someone will come along who can articulate the advantages / disadvantages.

I do too. Plus, your sight radius shortens, and if the glass get damaged, you're screwed. YMMV. thanks.

 

[Racer88]

Plus, your sight radius shortens, and if the glass get damaged, your screwed.

True about the radius. If the glass is damaged, you won't be able to line them up visually either way, right?

I guess in a SHTF situation where the glass gets shattered, your best bet would be to quickly knock all the glass out.

 

[One Ping Only]

True about the radius. If the glass is damaged, you won't be able to line them up visually either way, right?

I guess in a SHTF situation where the glass gets shattered, your best bet would be to quickly knock all the glass out.

Well, if the thing is damaged, or somehow compromised, yeah you could just knock it out. If you RDS just dies you should have clear sight over the irons, in either installation type.

 

[Mooner]

If you are new to RDS, finding that dot is more important. Your gonna have to dry fire a ton to get used to finding the dot consistently. Number 1 benefit of RDS is having a target focus, don't focus on the dot, look through the dot. I don't even see iron nowadays unless I turn off RDS to practice.

I have both. At first, I prefer iron forward but now it really doesn't matter to me.

Benefits for iron forward of optic:
1. full view - full window view of your primary sighting system, don't want iron blocking half of your optic window, (side note, which is why co-withness is a dumb idea on RDS)

2. optic protection - shell deflection and one hand manipulation - both cases would protect optic lens/body

Sight Radius - in self-defense scenarios it doesn't matter. From interviews of citizens or officers shooting and asked them if they saw the front sight, literally nobody... It becomes point and shoot. This is why RDS is more beneficial, you basically point the dot and shoot.

Glass Breakage - Recommend "sage dynamic" youtube channel, he has tons of red dot test series. He is famous for dropping the red dots on concrete. Few completely break down where it is unusable but most survive the drops maybe crack or two, but still function. Nowadays even for duty use, I wouldn't worry about Quality RDS breaking down.

SHTF - What are you doing with a pistol, get your AR man~ I can say that now such a good feeling

I don't have Vortex Venom but have you considered Holosun? it has an RMR footprint. I think HS gives you the best price with feature-rich optic.

 

[Racer88]

1. full view - full window view of your primary sighting system, don't want iron blocking half of your optic window, (side note, which is why co-withness is a dumb idea on RDS)

Here's the view on my G34. I would not say it's half the optic window. This is a Holosun 507.

On my "bump in the night pistol," an FNH FNP-45 Tactical... with a Trijicon RMR, which has a smaller window than the Holosun.

You do make an interesting point about the rear sight blocking some of the optic window area if it's set up to "cowitness." So, that raises the question... if you don't have some cowitness (visibility of the iron sights through the optic - the same whether it's in front or back)... then there's no point in having iron sights on the gun at all, right?

 

[Mooner]

If money wasn't an issue, I would get this for RDS beginners.
ACSS Vulcan Reticle is great for beginners to find the dot.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59n8w3PLxPU

 

[Racer88]

If money wasn't an issue, I would get this for RDS beginners.
ACSS Vulcan Reticle is great for beginners to find the dot.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59n8w3PLxPU

Now that's a cool RDS reticle! First I've heard of it. Here's a shorter video that shows how it works. I'll get that for my next RDS! Wonder if they have it in green?


View: https://youtu.be/hy-Y26z54Ro

 

[Mooner]

You do make an interesting point about the rear sight blocking some of the optic window area if it's set up to "cowitness." So, that raises the question... if you don't have some cowitness (visibility of the iron sights through the optic - the same whether it's in front or back)... then there's no point in having iron sights on the gun at all, right?

Some will argue co-witness is a must, others will say know your hold over and get more training.

Dare I say it... I think RDS are good enuf we might not need backup iron. Some trainer have said publicly they didn't replaced front sight when it fell off.

Guess it come down to your comfort level. RDS is good enuf for 99% but you need the iron for that 1%

 

[Racer88]

Dare I say it... I think RDS are good enuf we might not need backup iron. Some trainer have said publicly they didn't replaced front sight when it fell off.

I think it's a valid argument (no iron sights at all).

My training is such that in a real self-defense situation (at "normal" distances), I am not likely to use ANY sights at all. That's right.

I've trained in "instinctive" or "point shooting"...aka "threat focused." Literally no sights used. Not even looking at the gun. Firing anywhere from the hip all the way to shoulder level. But, no sights. It works. But, you've got to train for it and practice it bunches.

 

[One Ping Only]

Thanks, all!

So many great optics out there ( I LIKE the Holosun very much!), but did narrow it down to a Burris FF3, or the Vortex Venom (3 MOA variants of both). for both size, features and budgetary reasons. I believe both of these require a Doctor Cut slide or an adapter plate for RMS cut slides.

Was leaning towards the Venom, as it offers a few more features than the Burris (including Armor Coating). Since this is going on a sidearm, I didn't want the Venom's wider window that sticks out a bit on both sides of the slide.

But I walked into our local variety store here in town just a few hours ago, and in the SportingGoods section they didn't have the Venom, but the Vortex Viper....and they had the Burris FF3 for $159.97 out the door.

SCORE.

There is a minty-fresh Burris FF3 NIB on my table here. hehe. I'm chuffed. Now for the slide to go with it.
Still haven't decided front or rear BUIRS yet. You folks are indeed a BIG help!

 

[Mooner]

I will have to get one of those training classes in the field.... my indoor ranges sux

 

[Mooner]

There is a minty-fresh Burris FF3 NIB on my table here. hehe. I'm chuffed. Now for the slide to go with it.
Still haven't decided front or rear BUIRS yet. You folks are indeed a BIG help!

Awesome. Let us known if you have addition questions...

Just double check and triple check footprint, I am not familiar but I'm sure Google can help

 

[One Ping Only]

Awesome. Let us known if you have addition questions...

Just double check and triple check footprint, I am not familiar but I'm sure Google can help

the salesperson behind the counter showed me a FF3 that she had just opened the box on...a simply elegant little gem, and the perfect size for a Glock slide as far as width. I was kinda shocked how small it was.

OTOH, since this RDS is a different style of targeting than iron sights and it's both eyes open, the small window doesn't matter to me on a defense/sport handgun as you are simply looking at the target and bringing the dot up to it. Again, the Venom in spite of the cost increase of about $75 more offers the wider window and 10 settings, slightly more MOA adjustments; but I figure I'm going to leave it to auto in the intensity setting anyway. the FF3 may be a bit long in the tooth compared to the Venom, but it's proven and solid with a pretty good warranty. Either choice would have been good, but this deal was too good to pass up.

As far as co-witness, I plan on a can later on. So silencer-height sights and CW isn't a bad idea; aside from that, I'm seriously considering ditching the irons altogether.

And I just found this which confirmed what I already thought was the case: Burris Fastfire 3 features the Docter/Noblex mounting standard.

Yay!!

 

[Racer88]

I'm seriously considering ditching the irons altogether.

Is there a product out there to fill the dovetail and front sight hole as "blanks?" Sort of like a slide cut cover plate? I don't think I'd like the look of just an empty dovetail in the back and a hole in the front of the slide.

 

[Mooner]

auto in the intensity setting

I didn't have good experience on auto setting RDS. It was few yrs back, Swampfox Sential Auto.

I didn't like auto brightness setting at all. Returned and got HS507K instead.

Is there a product out there to fill the dovetail and front sight hole as "blanks?" Sort of like a slide cut cover plate? I don't think I'd like the look of just an empty dovetail in the back and a hole in the front of the slide.

Any epoxy mix should do the job

 

[One Ping Only]

Is there a product out there to fill the dovetail and front sight hole as "blanks?" Sort of like a slide cut cover plate? I don't think I'd like the look of just an empty dovetail in the back and a hole in the front of the slide.

excellent question. I don't see how they could cover that up properly without being more obtrusive, unless you either could do a GREAT job of JB weld/epoxy on the cheep, or have it filled in (welded) and then refinish the slide.

Honestly this little FF3 has bit me real hard already after beholding it in the box, and I'm looking for ways to put one on my SC (justify the $$). It's the perfect size for it. But I'd need to purchase another AND mill and refin my G26 slide. That's about another 270 bones or so right there. But it's so doggone uhh "cute" lol. I just wish the Burris had an auto-on feature for stress moments with nightstand duty.

 

[One Ping Only]

I didn't have good experience on auto setting RDS. It was few yrs back, Swampfox Sential Auto.

I didn't like auto brightness setting at all. Returned and got HS507K instead.


Any epoxy mix should do the job

We'll see how well the auto brightness works on the Burris and what works best on the 19. It's nothing to change it from high (daytime use) to lower for security uses if the auto setting isn't happening.

 

[Racer88]

Any epoxy mix should do the job

I don't see how they could cover that up properly without being more obtrusive, unless you either could do a GREAT job of JB weld/epoxy on the cheep, or have it filled in (welded) and then refinish the slide.

Gosh no. That would never look good (and maybe not reversible). I would want a machined piece that fits in there. It wouldn't have to be perfectly flush - in the front sight slot, for example. It could be a sort of "vestigial" sight.

Or maybe it could be a special / custom request from slide makers like Zaffiri - iron sight slot delete option!