Trigger reset with a Ghost Unit Connector

marsbase

marsbase

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I swapped a Ghost Unit Connector into a totally stock Gen 2 Glock 17. Before the swap the gun had a 4.25 lb trigger. After the swap, the gun had a 3.75 lb trigger.

With the Ghost connector installed, the gun dry fires as expected. Cycle the slide and the trigger resets. But if I hold the trigger back with my finger as I cycle the slide and then release the trigger, the sear drops the firing pin lug. Essentially, this would be a double fire (or full auto). I have heard other people describe this behavior but I've never heard a precise explanation of what is going on.

This Unit Connector has a reduced slope intended to reduce the maximum trigger pressure required. And it has a TCT (trigger control tab) designed as a drop in over- travel limit and give a shorter reset. Of course, this means that the trigger bar would normally move further back before the lug dropped.

I'm hoping someone here can offer an explanation of this behavior so I understand exactly what the problem is. Why would the lug drop when I hold the trigger back while cycling the slide but not when I cycle the slide without holding the trigger?
 
What does the sear engagement look like?
 
Racer88 said:
What does the sear engagement look like?
Click to expand...
About 50% both with the OEM connector and the Ghost connector. Of course, that is when I am dry firing without holding the trigger. Obviously the engagement is zero after I release the trigger with the Ghost in place. Seems that the connector is resulting in a raised trigger bar when the trigger is held back but not when it is released.

That's what is confusing. You would think that if the lug drops as the trigger is released, it would also drop when the trigger is never held back.
 
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What's the rest of your trigger group? All stock gen 2?
 
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FrankenGlock said:
What's the rest of your trigger group? All stock gen 2?
Click to expand...
All Gen 2 OEM and I also tried it with the trigger bar that came with a "complete" SCT frame. Same result.
 
Can you post pictures of the frame with trigger group and Ghost connector installed?
 
marsbase said:
About 50% both with the OEM connector and the Ghost connector. Of course, that is when I am dry firing without holding the trigger. Obviously the engagement is zero after I release the trigger with the Ghost in place.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm... Sear engagement isn't measured while manipulating the trigger. It is "at rest" or a "static assessment," ideally with a mag (loaded with snap caps) inserted. It's inspected using an "armorer's slide cover plate" in place.

I realize you may know all this. So I don't mean to insult your intelligence. :)
But I'm confused by your comment about sear engagement while dry firing or manipulating the trigger.

marsbase said:
Why would the lug drop
Click to expand...
That's why my first guess was a sear engagement issue.

Sear engagement .png
Ray-Gun-sear.jpg
 
Racer88 said:
Hmmmm... Sear engagement isn't measured while manipulating the trigger. It is "at rest" or a "static assessment," ideally with a mag (loaded with snap caps) inserted. It's inspected using an "armorer's slide cover plate" in place.

I realize you may know all this. So I don't mean to insult your intelligence. :)
But I'm confused by your comment about sear engagement while dry firing or manipulating the trigger.


That's why my first guess was a sear engagement issue.

View attachment 23785View attachment 23786
Click to expand...
Yes, I do know how to measure it and no, you did not insult me. I will have to put the connector back in and make photos. When I referred to the zero engagement, I just meant that (although I couldn't see it) there must have been no engagement because the lug dropped. I'm pretty sure I've heard about this before but no one ever reached an understanding of what was going on.
 
marsbase said:
Yes, I do know how to measure it and no, you did not insult me. I will have to put the connector back in and make photos. When I referred to the zero engagement, I just meant that (although I couldn't see it) there must have been no engagement because the lug dropped. I'm pretty sure I've heard about this before but no one ever reached an understanding of what was going on.
Click to expand...
This is likely "beyond my paygrade." I was just thinking if the lug is slipping off on the reset, maybe there isn't enough there to begin with "at rest" with the trigger forward.
 
Ok, so here are the photos. This time I had a mag with snap caps. Previously I had no mag. And this time I did a photo (OEM first and then Ghost)
1. the trigger forward and then
2. the trigger held back.
3. And when I released the trigger in the case of the Ghost connector and it dropped the lug.

There was not so much difference between the OEM and Ghost and both had very little engagement with the trigger held back. I did not realize this before. So I guess the difference was "just enough" and this is good for me to know, not only for the Ghost but for the OEM too. I think my next trick will be to bend the sear up on the SCT trigger bar so that I start with 100% engagement. Then we will see if that provides a margin of safety with the trigger held back (which I think I must have) without sacrificing the light trigger and short reset that is the purpose of the Ghost connector to begin with. Thanks for making me do this right. :)
 

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marsbase said:
Ok, so here are the photos. This time I had a mag with snap caps. Previously I had no mag. And this time I did a photo (OEM first and then Ghost)
1. the trigger forward and then
2. the trigger held back.
3. And when I released the trigger in the case of the Ghost connector and it dropped the lug.

There was not so much difference between the OEM and Ghost and both had very little engagement with the trigger held back. I did not realize this before. So I guess the difference was "just enough" and this is good for me to know, not only for the Ghost but for the OEM too. I think my next trick will be to bend the sear up on the SCT trigger bar so that I start with 100% engagement. Then we will see if that provides a margin of safety with the trigger held back (which I think I must have) without sacrificing the light trigger and short reset that is the purpose of the Ghost connector to begin with. Thanks for making me do this right. :)
Click to expand...
Everything I can find with searches regarding firing on the trigger rest points to sear engagement.

This looks "no bueno" to me. Maybe 25%? Glock stipulates at least 2/3rds coverage. I prefer 75-100%.
1727050283881.png


Good photos!
 
I held the gun. My wife made the photos. :) Of course you are right about the poor engagement. I will make sure this is fixed before I take this setup to the range. Thanks for your help.
 
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I just realized this is a previously bone-stock Glock 17. Is that right? So, you didn't install any parts other than the Ghost connector? The rest is all original?

Was it firing on reset before the connector change?

I recently checked the sear engagement on my bone stock Glocks out of curiosity. I was a bit disappointed (with 2 of them).

Sear-Glock Comparison-G19-G27-G23.jpg
 
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As a bone-stock Glock it did NOT fire on reset. But as you can see from the photos, the engagement of that bone-stock pistol was not good. I just thought of something. This bone-stock Glock had a light trigger weight all on its own. It was 4.25 lb. I really wonder if this correlates to a low engagement. A trigger with low engagement should fire with less trigger "reach" and that probably means less max pull weight. It will be interesting to see how the trigger weight changes when I bend the sear to 100% engagement.
 
marsbase said:
As a bone-stock Glock it did NOT fire on reset. But as you can see from the photos, the engagement of that bone-stock pistol was not good. I just thought of something. This bone-stock Glock had a light trigger weight all on its own. It was 4.25 lb. I really wonder if this correlates to a low engagement. A trigger with low engagement should fire with less trigger "reach" and that probably means less max pull weight. It will be interesting to see how the trigger weight changes when I bend the sear to 100% engagement.
Click to expand...
To my understanding, sear engagement does not affect trigger pull weight.
 
Racer88 said:
To my understanding, sear engagement does not affect trigger pull weight.
Click to expand...
I switched to a 3rd party trigger bar (didn't want to mess up a Gen 2 OEM bar) and retested the trigger weight. It was 5.25 lb, so a full pound heavier without changing anything but the bar. The engagement was about the same with trigger forward at 50%. Then I bent the kickup to give me about 95 % engagement. And @Racer88, you are correct that the trigger weight stayed the same at 5.25 lb. Johnny Glock has commented that increasing engagement may give a longer and "spongier" pull and that this can be corrected using a different connector. So my next trick will be to put back in the Ghost Unit connector to see if I still have the double-tap on reset effect. And to see if I can get a short reset while maintaining engagement the whole time.
 
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So I did put the Ghost Unit connector back in. Trigger pull fell to 4.5 lbs (a decrease of 3/4 lb) and the engagement with trigger forward dropped from 95% to about 75%. Engagement with trigger held back dropped to about 50%. There was no problem with double tap and the trigger is smooth with a very short reset. I don't know that using the Unit Connector is that useful with this Gen 2 Glock because the trigger was quite good to start with. But now that I have some experience raising the kickup, I think I'm not going to be satisfied with any trigger having less than 95% engagement. I think you need that to be sure that other changes (like the connector) don't get you into trouble.
 
Racer88 said:
I recently checked the sear engagement on my bone stock Glocks out of curiosity. I was a bit disappointed (with 2 of them).

View attachment 23795
Click to expand...
Racer, did you modify these OEM Glock sears to give you better engagement? Was it difficult to bend the metal? How far did you take it?
 

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