Article Link! The Great American EV Fire Sale Is About to Begin

[Bongo Lewi]

I tried autocross once. Wow.... wait all day for a few 1-minute runs on a tiny course. Boooooooorrrrrrring. That was my 1st and last time. Autocross is for guys with limited budgets and want to have some "fun" with their cars.

My track days were officially called "HPDE" (high performance drivers education).... for "insurance purposes." They use full-size race tracks (road courses). It's not "racing" (for insurance purposes), as there is no timing and no "winners" (1st, 2nd, 3rd places, etc). Sessions run 20 - 30 minutes. Usually four sessions for a track day. So you can get up to 2 hours of track time. And trust me.... that's enough for a day. It's very demanding mentally and even physically.

HPDE track days are an expensive proposition, too. It's for serious car enthusiasts. It's been almost 20 years since I was doing it, and back then I estimated the cost to be about $1000 for the day. And I was being conservative for my wife's sake!

I don't know any car guys that drag race. Drag racing street cars is about the same as auto-cross, IMO. It's a low-budget way to hammer your car and have a bit of fun. HPDE is hard on the car. Very hard. So, if you're going to do it on a regular basis, it entails some mods and / or a significant increase in maintenance and repair costs.


You're the one who compared it to the Toyota (see quote below). I can "guarantee" the Corolla GR (assuming a skilled driver) will leave the Cybertruck behind on a road course.




I agree... When I saw the "crab walk" thing on their TV ad, my first thought was.... "And that's useful in exactly WHICH situation???"

Around here Cybertrucks and E-Hum-Vees are purely status symbols. None of them will be used for "truck stuff." But then again, around here the same is true for most Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos, and McLarens... Very few will ever be tracked or even pushed much on the streets.

I think a lot of people like the novelty of the Cybertruck. It’s so different from anything else on the market. Intentionally. Nothing Musk does is conventional. Meanwhile, the big makers have been tripping over their dicks trying to make an EV people want to buy for six years - and failing. Tesla’s are selling well worldwide. Cybertruck not so much but that was never the intention of that design. It’s a skunkworks project. Under the wierd skin is a lot of engineering innovation. The frame is unconventional in terms of design and also how it’s made.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Speaking of the Cyber truck and big players trying to get a decent EV to market:

I chatted with a guy (friend of a friend) who bought into the new VW bus. He is verklempt. Beside the fact the car is a total fail POS, designed by people who design ICE cars and cant get that shit out of their heads, the buyer is emotionally broken because he's an old hippie boomer and nostalgia for the 60's got the better of him. I sent the dude over the ledge when I told him he should have bought the Cybertruck. He irrationally hates Musk, as do many aging liberals.

These days are over, hippie.

It must be depressing waking up to the fact that the clock is running, you have no more time outs, and as you enter the last quarter realize your generation fucked up the entire world and didn't make it better. Maybe I should not have said that. I backed off because it's probably no fun wearing man diapers and your prostate is the size of a grapefruit.

I hate to seem contrary about my affection for EVs, but give me the old gas burning bus over this piece of crap. Design-wise it's a total miss. Badly done retro. Like the 'new' beetle. You would have to be German to think this new bus is cool.



Unt now we dance!

 

[Racer88]

Speaking of the Cyber truck and big players trying to get a decent EV to market:

I chatted with a guy (friend of a friend) who bought into the new VW bus. He is verklempt. Beside the fact the car is a total fail POS, designed by people who design ICE cars and cant get that shit out of their heads, the buyer is emotionally broken because he's an old hippie boomer and nostalgia for the 60's got the better of him. I sent the dude over the ledge when I told him he should have bought the Cybertruck. He irrationally hates Musk, as do many aging liberals.

These days are over, hippie.
View attachment 33501
It must be depressing waking up to the fact that the clock is running, you have no more time outs, and as you enter the last quarter realize your generation fucked up the entire world and didn't make it better. Maybe I should not have said that. I backed off because it's probably no fun wearing man diapers and your prostate is the size of a grapefruit.

I hate to seem contrary about my affection for EVs, but give me the old gas burning bus over this piece of crap. Design-wise it's a total miss. Badly done retro. Like the 'new' beetle. You would have to be German to think this new bus is cool.

View attachment 33499

Unt now we dance!

So, besides the fact that the new "bus" is an EV.... what are the other issues with it? I'm morbidly curious!

 

[Bongo Lewi]

So, besides the fact that the new "bus" is an EV.... what are the other issues with it? I'm morbidly curious!

1. It was way late getting into dealers. Something like a year after the target date people were given when they made their deposit.
2. Cost is way over what they promised. $60-70k depending on trim. Then Trump tariffs on German made cars adds 25%
3. Range is not on par with most current EVs. That's ridiculous given the room the platform has for batteries.
4. There was a mandatory DOT recall for all US models. The rear seats are wide enough for three persons but only two seat belts per seat were provided. A third belt had to be added.
5. Cup holders must be added after the vehicles are imported to the US. Apparently Germans don't use cup holders.

Personally, I don't think it resembles the original much at all. It looks like a Japanese mini van.

 

[Racer88]

Cost is way over what they promised. $60-70k depending on trim. Then Trump tariffs on German made cars adds 25%

Wow. That's nuts.

Cup holders must be added after the vehicles are imported to the US. Apparently Germans don't use cup holders.

They hold onto their beer steins, eh? Never put them down.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Wow. That's nuts.


They hold onto their beer steins, eh? Never put them down.

European drivers prefer stick shift. That may have something to do with it. Everywhere in small cars but I've seen manual shift on big sedans too. I read someplace that automatic transmissions are gaining in popularity on that side of the pond. A short term trend. EVs don't have transmissions.

 

[Racer88]

European drivers prefer stick shift. That may have something to do with it. Everywhere in small cars but I've seen manual shift on big sedans too. I read someplace that automatic transmissions are gaining in popularity on that side of the pond. A short term trend. EVs don't have transmissions.

Yeah... good luck finding a manual transmission here in the US these days.

For a sports / sporty car, it's the ONLY way, IMO.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Someone asked... what would make that bus more authentic or faithful to the original?

#1 round headlights
#2 separate, round turn signals
#3 Split windshield
#4 Classic 'moon' wheels or wheel covers.
#5 A sharper "v" on the front instead of that rounded off "U" that makes the front view look like a creepy Asian smiling.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Yeah... good luck finding a manual transmission here in the US these days.

For a sports / sporty car, it's the ONLY way, IMO.

I liked my Z4. Fun to drive. I dont know why anyone would want a roadster with an automatic trans.

 

[Racer88]

I liked my Z4. Fun to drive. I dont know why anyone would want a roadster with an automatic trans.

How many people know how to drive a manual these days?

They'll also try to argue that an automatic is "faster" than a manual. (eye roll)

 

[FrankenGlock]

How many modern race cars have manual transmissions?

 

[Racer88]

How many modern race cars have manual transmissions?

All of them, actually. They are sequential manual transmissions. They have a clutch. Yes... a computer actuates the clutch when the driver uses the paddle shifters. The computer also does the "rev-matching" on the downshifts. Very cool. But they are NOT automatic (torque converter) transmissions. They are very much manuals, or some call them "auto-manuals." But they are not "slush box" automatic transmissions.

 

[no4mk1t]

Someone asked... what would make that bus more authentic or faithful to the original?

#1 round headlights
#2 separate, round turn signals
#3 Split windshield
#4 Classic 'moon' wheels or wheel covers.
#5 A sharper "v" on the front instead of that rounded off "U" that makes the front view look like a creepy Asian smiling.

The answer would seem to be a restored split screen converted to electric. Then you have the authentic article to scratch the nostalgia itch, but with modern features. Today it's possible to have one with p/s, a/c, a modern stereo, comfy seats, disc brakes etc., and Tesla power. Better want one real bad and have deep pockets though.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

The answer would seem to be a restored split screen converted to electric. Then you have the authentic article to scratch the nostalgia itch, but with modern features. Today it's possible to have one with p/s, a/c, a modern stereo, comfy seats, disc brakes etc., and Tesla power. Better want one real bad and have deep pockets though.

I'm not a fan of conversions of any stripe. Too many compromises. That includes caliber kits for guns. I lean strongly toward purpose-built. An EV should be built on a modern, aluminum roller skate chassis. Updated suspension and the provision for the battery compartment in the pan to be reasonably protected from water.

I could enjoy an old VW bus nicely restored to factory spec as a fun weekend toy. Artifact of the past kind of thing. They arent very safe and dont measure up to modern cars in other ways but like any antique are pretty cool as collectibles.

When I was actively restoring old bikes I wouldn't use a bolt or screw that wasn't plated or coated exactly the same as the original. Joints originally braised, I braised. Even though welding would have been much faster. Basically, old stuff... I like it the way it was originally made. Even if there's a way to upgrade or improve it, I wouldn't do it. Personal preference. One of my many quirks.

On the practical side, anything collectible that's been modified often devalues it. Guns are no exception. Most serious collectors won't buy a gun somebody has fucked with. Unless the provenance is known and it was done by a recognized expert... a well known gunsmith or something like that. I'm an amateur collector by any definition. Not a pro. Still, if a something catches any interest then I realize it's been modified, I walk. I wont even buy a new gun that's been on display and handled by the sales people and customers. I ask if they have a virgin in the back. If they don't, no sale. I buy it online or from another shop.

 

[Racer88]

I'm not a fan of conversions of any stripe. Too many compromises. That includes caliber kits for guns. I lean strongly toward purpose-built.

I'm the same way. No caliber conversions for me for that same reason.

Tesla's first EV was a converted Lotus Elise, called the "Tesla Roadster."

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I'm the same way. No caliber conversions for me for that same reason.

Tesla's first EV was a converted Lotus Elise, called the "Tesla Roadster."

Yep. Just the chassis. They didnt have the means to build that themselves. That's one of the many reasons Tesla almost went under. Founders Eberhard and Tarpenning invited Elon and his PayPal money to the party. Next thing you know, they were out and Elon was running the show. The rest is history.

I rode in the original roadster shortly after it came out and it was shocking to me how fast it was.

 

[Racer88]

Yep. Just the chassis.

The body, too. Here's what the actual Lotus Elise chassis looks like:

Aluminum extrusions BONDED together. The red stuff is the glue! Not welded... glued! Total weight of the chassis... 150 lbs. No shit.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

The body, too. Here's what the actual Lotus Elise chassis looks like:

View attachment 33503

Aluminum extrusions BONDED together. The red stuff is the glue! Not welded... glued! Total weight of the chassis... 150 lbs. No shit.

Some parts like the windshield were reused but the body is not the same.
View: https://youtu.be/HA3AmoOi6p4?si=hTd8zYdyBFz9QlOx

The adhesive supplements bolts and rivets. It's really not glued together. The adhesive in combination with the bolts and rivets also spares the need to weld, which is expensive when you are hand-building cars. This method is not uncommon in modern aircraft manufacturing. Metal to meal as well as metal to composite.

An engineer I worked with years ago invented a method for repacking valves without taking them out of service using plastic injection vs the traditional method - which involved taking systems down and disassembling the valve. He made a fortune on the patents. Enough to retire in his late 30's. It saves an unspeakable amount of money in maintaining valves in process systems like marine propulsion, refining, chem, steel, utilities, and many others.

It's amazing what plastigoop can do. Lexus started filling their frames and certain areas of the body with high density foam as a soundproofing and realized in that process it also has a non-trivial stiffening effect on the frame and chassis.

 

[Racer88]

The adhesive supplements bolts and rivets. It's really not glued together. The adhesive in combination with the bolts and rivets also spares the need to weld, which is expensive when you are hand-building cars. This method is not uncommon in modern aircraft manufacturing. Metal to meal as well as metal to composite.

In this case the bond strength exceeded the cohesive strength of the aluminum. In other words, under tensile testing, the aluminum would tear before the bond would separate. Amazing "glue" from 3M. I think the rivets and bolts supplemented the bonding.

The body shape of the Roadster was nearly identical to the Elise, though the Elise was prettier.

The Elise did NOT pass DOT crash test standards and thusly got a 5-year exemption for the US market. In the showroom, there was a big sticker on the windshield that had to be removed by the buyer. The sticker warned the buyer that the car did not meet DOT crash standards. A legal way to say, "If you crash in this, you're gonna die... or wish you were dead." Lotus had 5 years to make it compliant. They didn't do that, and the Elise was taken off the US market.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

In this case the bond strength exceeded the cohesive strength of the aluminum. In other words, under tensile testing, the aluminum would tear before the bond would separate. Amazing "glue" from 3M. I think the rivets and bolts supplemented the bonding.

The body shape of the Roadster was nearly identical to the Elise, though the Elise was prettier.

The Elise did NOT pass DOT crash test standards and thusly got a 5-year exemption for the US market. In the showroom, there was a big sticker on the windshield that had to be removed by the buyer. The sticker warned the buyer that the car did not meet DOT crash standards. A legal way to say, "If you crash in this, you're gonna die... or wish you were dead." Lotus had 5 years to make it compliant. They didn't do that, and the Elise was taken off the US market.

There was a Lotus dealer in town when I was a kid and I would wander in there now and then to look at a the cars. I dont think I ever saw the Elise in person. Just in pics.

The Tesla skin was mostly carbon fiber. I suppose the similarities had to do with fitting over the frame. And it looked cool. The dude in the vid mentions what Tesla re-used.

I read someplace that Dow made the goop. It had to be cured with heat and the surfaces to be bonded had to be prepared properly to assure a consistent gap between the parts. The goop has to be a consistent thickness to work as expected.

The only problem I can come up with is if you bend the frame - it's probably fucked. Can't be repaired.