Article Link! The Great American EV Fire Sale Is About to Begin

[Racer88]

The whining and nattering will stop because most of them will be dead by then or crapping in their pants at the Shady Rest nursing home.

Your inference of "whining" is telling. Pointing out the pitfalls of EVs isn't "whining." Now, if you try to FORCE me into buying an EV, it will be more than whining. I don't "hate" EVs. Nor am I complaining. Why would I complain??? I'm perfectly happy with my ICE cars. I simply have no use for EVs. There is nothing practical about them for ME.

Oddly, I'm not trying to convince anyone to buy an ICE car, while the EV advocates are passionate about trying to convince me that I'm wrong. Who are they REALLY trying to convince?? (Themselves.) I don't go around prosyletizing for ICE or against EVs. I only bring up why I won't ever buy an EV.... for purely practical reasons. They simply do not serve MY purposes when it comes to a car. I am not willing to compromise practicality to fulfill some distorted and delusional moral "high ground."

My statement to those who have bought or hope to buy an EV is: Good for you. If it's what you WANT, and you can afford it.... Rock on! Enjoy in good health!

Just don't mandate it. Let the free market be. I don't WANT one. For some reason it bothers EV owners that some of us don't want what they want. It bothers them a LOT. So who's "whining?"

 

[Bongo Lewi]

No derangement. Just a VERY clear understanding of Physics AND my own driving needs.

Where I might get "deranged" is when politicians and their supporters aim to MANDATE what I buy and drive (and ultimately WHERE and WHEN I drive).

The common casual arguments made (in social environments) by the EV advocates are not only vacuous but really rather amusing. The best they've got is this delusion that I spend 20+ minutes at a gas station fueling up my car "anyway." Ummm.... no. Never. And then... the 20 minutes doesn't include WAITING for a working charger.... AND all that time and effort to go only 100 miles, which means in another 90 minutes I'll be searching desperately for the next charger.

Again.... no exaggeration... 3 minutes to go from nearly empty to FULL, giving me 400 - 500 miles of range. And no advance planning needed in order to map out the next fuel stop. I don't eat at gas stations, and I don't eat (or use the bathroom) every 90 minutes / 100 miles. It's really quite the odd (and very weak) argument in favor of EVs.

The Biden thing was tempest in a teapot. An impossible mandate. No matter. That's over. Nobody is making anybody buy anything. It's a false narrative. EVs are going to prevail in passenger vehicles. It's going to happen all by itself.

Every car maker CEO has said EVs are going to dominate. Just not on the schedule the green wackos demanded.

We can agree hydrogen is probably dead - for consumers anyway. Toyota is the only one still hanging on to that.

BTW: For the paranoid out there... the government can already shut off your car or disable it remotely. Unless you drive something that's pre-telematics (OnStar or similar). Or disable the car. Not subscribing doesn't disable it. They, whoever 'they' is can turn it on remotely if you are not a subscriber who uses the service.

I suggest driving a 1972 AMC Gremlin. The lime green is especially nice.

 

[Racer88]

An impossible mandate. No matter. That's over. Nobody is making anybody buy anything. It's a false narrative.

It's not a false narrative if they actually tried to implement it. Yes... it's over... for NOW. Just like gun control. Just because we win a battle, it doesn't mean they have given up. It's never over over. Tyrants wanna be tyrant-ing. They don't give up.

 

[Racer88]

I suggest driving a 1972 AMC Gremlin. The lime green is especially nice.

Pacer!

 

[Racer88]

^^^ a ridiculously ambitious and impossible mandate^^^

 

[Bongo Lewi]

There are so many more important issues to be concerned about. I read on X that the government is going to require everyone to eat Cap'n Crunch for breakfast every day, banning eggs, Rice Krispies, and others. Pelosi and several either democrats have purchased thousands of shares in Quaker Oats Corp. Then the post disappeared. The Men in Black probably abducted the whistleblower and sent him to the American Gulag in rural Arkansas.

You heard it here first.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

View attachment 33553

View attachment 33554

This was all bullshit from the get-go. Never remotely possible. It would not have stood up in court and everybody knew this.

Props to Trump though. As ridiculous as this was.

 

[Racer88]

There are so many more important issues to be concerned about. I read on X that the government is going to require everyone to eat Cap'n Crunch for breakfast every day, banning eggs, Rice Krispies, and others. Pelosi and several either democrats have purchased thousands of shares in Quaker Oats Corp. Then the post disappeared. The Men in Black probably abducted the whistleblower and sent him to the American Gulag in rural Arkansas.

You heard it here first.

I am pro-Cap'n Crunch! It will also stoke sales of numbing mouthwashes to address the torn up palates.

The entire state of Arkansas is a gulag. I escaped it!

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I am pro-Cap'n Crunch! It will also stoke sales of numbing mouthwashes to address the torn up palates.

The entire state of Arkansas is a gulag. I escaped it!

That's why I mentioned it!

I was in Little Rock once.

And Secretary Clinton was my boss. Does that count? I received a commendation signed by her, thanking me for getting shot in the line of duty.

 

[Racer88]

That's why I mentioned it!

I was in Little Rock once.

And Secretary Clinton was my boss. Does that count? I received a commendation signed by her, thanking me for getting shot in the line of duty.

Little Rock is a hotbed of gang activity. One of the most dangerous cities in the US. I think in the top five.

There is only one place I've ever been nervous walking (even though I was armed, of course).... Little Rock. My brother got married in a historic mansion right in the middle of LR. Of course, the party went late into the night. The parking was all out on the streets around the old mansion. The neighborhood around that mansion.... was the opposite of "mansion." It was a ROUGH neighborhood. I walked several people to their cars. And then eventually to my own car. I could FEEL the eyes on us. And I could see people lurking in the shadows watching us. Very creepy.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Dude... I see the EV stations at the Turnpike plazas..... Now. Recently. Half of them are out of order at any given time. Not kidding or exaggerating. I'll take pictures (if I remember) next time. And there is a line of EVs waiting for an open charger. I can't help smirk a bit while I'm fueling up my car in about 3 minutes with the EV crew waiting in the background. And then I'm on my way while there has been no movement at the charging stations.

Interestingly, in the strip center where my dry cleaner and favorite local Tex-Mex joint are, they installed a bank of brand new chargers at the far end of the parking lot. At least a half-dozen. Most of the time when I go by there (at least once or twice a week), the chargers are 100% vacant. Occasionally there will be one car there charging.

Doesn't matter. It isn't going to change a thing. Ten years. Naysayers need to get used to the idea.

I did read someplace that scum bags are cutting the cables off charging stations to recover the copper. Also that anarchist assholes who suddenly decided to hate Musk are vandalizing them.

Charging stations are a chicken or egg kind of problem. Sales of EVs remain relatively low today and the charging stations are underutilized. But you can't grow sales if there are few charging stations. Cars had the same problem in the Model T days. There were no gas stations. And few roads outside of urban areas. That took a while.

The nattering nabobs are going to be shocked at how fast this happens. Ten years EVs will be ubiquitous. ICE will still be around but shrinking rapidly in new car and truck sales. Crying and tantrums will abound.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Little Rock is a hotbed of gang activity. One of the most dangerous cities in the US. I think in the top five.

There is only one place I've ever been nervous walking (even though I was armed, of course).... Little Rock. My brother got married in a historic mansion right in the middle of LR. Of course, the party went late into the night. The parking was all out on the streets around the old mansion. The neighborhood around that mansion.... was the opposite of "mansion." It was a ROUGH neighborhood. I walked several people to their cars. And then eventually to my own car. I could FEEL the eyes on us. And I could see people lurking in the shadows watching us. Very creepy.

wow. like I said... we have bigger fish to fry than worrying about cars with batteries.

 

[no4mk1t]

I especially find the irrational whiners who rant about range yet the average American drives 37 miles a day. That's real data. Not made up bullshit.

While this is true, it doesn't paint the whole picture.
I have been saying for a while that for EV's to take off, 4 things need to happen.

1. The price needs to come down. This has been happening somewhat, but in the entry level models, battery capacity is limited. Which ties in with #2.

2. Range needs to go up. Not for around town driving, but for journeys to where charging stations are scarce.

3. The charging infrastructure needs to drastically improve. When you look at a map of where the rapid chargers are, they are mostly in population centers and along the interstate. Get off the beaten path, and the pickins get slim.

4. The charging plugs/receptacles need to be standardized. It's crazy that you have to carry around a box of adapters (at $100-$200+ ea.) to adapt the charger to your car. In addition to that, there are presently about 5-6 different companies operating charging networks. Each requires you create an account and download their app to your phone to make their chargers work. Why? Why in the cornbread fuck can't these chargers operate like a gas pump where you scan/swipe your card and are GTG? Why?
Look at the comments for individual chargers sometime and a sizeable number of the complaints are that the network is experiencing issues and you can't charge. Or if you can charge, it is at a much reduced rate than the website says that charger can produce.

Where I live, there are only 2 rapid chargers in the county. One is half an hour South on the Interstate (Tesla), the other a half hour North (Shell).
Then there are two Level 2 free public chargers. One is at a hotel for guest use only. The other is at a grocery store. Both of these are throttled down to about 5kW charge rate. Oh, and the local Electricity Co-op has a Level 2 at their office...not free though.

Looking at a map of charging locations looks impressive until you zoom in. Tesla by far has the biggest network of chargers. But a lot of them are what Tesla calls "Destination Chargers". These are basically a Level 2 charger. But you can't tell that until you zoom in on the map and click on the icon.

So, for me, I could use an EV for 90-95% of my driving where I stay in county. For trips elsewhere, I would still take the gas burner.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Nobody's changing their mind on this and I really don't care. It's been fun. See y'all at the charging station.

Here are my closing remarks .

EEI Projects 78 Million EVs Will Be on US Roads in 2035

www.eei.org

When I was in that biz as a young Turk, I served on a couple of EEI committees and twice presented boring technical papers I wrote at their annual conference. Every electric utility in the country is a member. So are the companies that design and build power plants. This is not a bunch of clueless bloggers being contrarian and posting clickbait for EV haters to gobble up.

Anybody think they know more than this group? For those who don't like to read, here are some highlights:

• The number of EVs on U.S. roads is projected to reach 78.5 million in 2035, up from 4.5 million at the end of 2023. This is more than 26 percent of the nearly 300 million total vehicles (cars and light trucks) expected to be on U.S. roads in 2035.
• In 2030, annual EV sales are projected to reach 7.7 million and account for nearly 46 percent of total light-duty vehicle sales. This is an increase of more than 2 million for annual EV sales compared to the projections in EEI’s 2022 forecast.
• Annual sales of EVs are projected to be nearly 12.2 million in 2035, reaching nearly 72 percent of annual total light-duty vehicle sales in 2035.
• Approximately 42.2 million charge ports will be needed to support the projected 78.5 million EVs that will be on U.S. roads in 2035.
• Approximately 325,000 DC fast charging ports will be needed to support the level of EVs projected to be on U.S. roads in 2035.
• America’s electric companies are making significant investments to expand access to EV charging, including investing more than $5.3 billion in charging infrastructure and other EV programs.

Depending on who you ask, projections on what percentage of EVs will be on the road or sold by the mid 2030's vary. This is what all the people who make electricity are planning for. The EEI have no dog in the fight on car sales, so I trust their numbers more.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

While this is true, it doesn't paint the whole picture.
I have been saying for a while that for EV's to take off, 4 things need to happen.

1. The price needs to come down. This has been happening somewhat, but in the entry level models, battery capacity is limited. Which ties in with #2.

2. Range needs to go up. Not for around town driving, but for journeys to where charging stations are scarce.

3. The charging infrastructure needs to drastically improve. When you look at a map of where the rapid chargers are, they are mostly in population centers and along the interstate. Get off the beaten path, and the pickins get slim.

4. The charging plugs/receptacles need to be standardized. It's crazy that you have to carry around a box of adapters (at $100-$200+ ea.) to adapt the charger to your car. In addition to that, there are presently about 5-6 different companies operating charging networks. Each requires you create an account and download their app to your phone to make their chargers work. Why? Why in the cornbread fuck can't these chargers operate like a gas pump where you scan/swipe your card and are GTG? Why?
Look at the comments for individual chargers sometime and a sizeable number of the complaints are that the network is experiencing issues and you can't charge. Or if you can charge, it is at a much reduced rate than the website says that charger can produce.

Where I live, there are only 2 rapid chargers in the county. One is half an hour South on the Interstate (Tesla), the other a half hour North (Shell).
Then there are two Level 2 free public chargers. One is at a hotel for guest use only. The other is at a grocery store. Both of these are throttled down to about 5kW charge rate. Oh, and the local Electricity Co-op has a Level 2 at their office...not free though.

Looking at a map of charging locations looks impressive until you zoom in. Tesla by far has the biggest network of chargers. But a lot of them are what Tesla calls "Destination Chargers". These are basically a Level 2 charger. But you can't tell that until you zoom in on the map and click on the icon.

So, for me, I could use an EV for 90-95% of my driving where I stay in county. For trips elsewhere, I would still take the gas burner.

The voice of reason!

 

[Racer88]

Under Biden (in 2021), $7.5BB was allocated to build charging stations. I recall that 8 stations were built... in four years! "Oh, we're still working on it," they said. "It takes time," they said. Uh-huh. 8 stations in four years. At this rate... well.... even Bongo can do the math.

We're from the government... We're here to help!

 

[no4mk1t]

The voice of reason!

I am neither pro or con on the EV issue. I find it interesting to follow the doings of Electric Classic Cars Youtube channel as a classic car converted to EV is more appealing to me than a Tesla. And if I have a Powerball win tomorrow, that is what I would buy if I were to buy an EV.

But here is an interesting comparison that I asked Co-Pilot to perform.

Compare 2 versions of the same model car from the same maker. One gas, one EV (not hybrid). I asked it to use my personal driving habits and how I currently operate my present car in terms of annual miles, local gas price at the moment, performing my own oil/filter changes etc. vs. charging an EV at home only for the local electricity price at the moment.
I told it not to include tires and brakes as the gas car has the advantage due to tire wear and cheaper tires, and the EV has the advantage in brake pad wear. Just want to compare the basics.

I also told it to not include any gov't incentives as those are about to expire anyway.

I asked it to calculate the breakeven point where the savings in operating the EV overtakes the additional costs of the gas version.

Now YMMV due to miles driven, paying for oil changes and maintenance etc. Now obviously, I did not expect the results it provides. I thought it would be much less. The gas version would require more $$$ in terms of tune ups and other periodic maintenance.

And this is what it spit out:

Price Difference​

Model	MSRP (2025)
Tucson SEL FWD	~$31,025
Ioniq 5 SE RWD	~$43,195
Price Gap	~$12,170

Annual Operating Costs​

Gas Tucson​

• Fuel: 10,000 mi ÷ 28 mpg × $2.55 = $911
• Oil Changes: 2 per year × $35 = $70
• Total Annual Cost: $981

Ioniq 5 EV​

• Electricity: 10,000 mi ÷ 3.5 mi/kWh × $0.16 = $457
• Oil Changes: $0
• Total Annual Cost: $457

Break-Even Calculation​

• Annual Savings: $981 (gas) – $457 (EV) = $524
• Break-Even Miles: $12,170 ÷ $0.0524/mi = 232,200 miles
• Break-Even Years: 232,200 ÷ 10,000 = ~23.2 years

Summary​

It would take ~232,000 miles or ~23 years of driving at 10,000 miles per year for the Ioniq 5 to break even with the Tucson based solely on fuel and oil costs, assuming no incentives and excluding brakes, tires, or resale value.

If you drive more annually or gas prices rise, the break-even point shortens. Want to explore how resale value or maintenance costs might shift the equation? I can model that too.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Under Biden (in 2021), $7.5BB was allocated to build charging stations. I recall that 8 stations were built... in four years! "Oh, we're still working on it," they said. "It takes time," they said. Uh-huh. 8 stations in four years. At this rate... well.... even Bongo can do the math.

We're from the government... We're here to help!

Yep. Just like their mandate and California's. Transportation Secretary Bootyjuice: total failure.

The private sector and free market are going to usher in the age of EVs. Just like it did for early cars. Is Musk the Henry Ford of his time? He's got a leg up on manufacturing EVs efficiently and no legacy to deal with. We shall see. I suspect the big car makers will plod along but I have little confidence in them leading.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Biased. It doesn't factor in routine/periodic maintenance other than oil change on the ICE. not even close.

TCO if you are one of those who keeps his car for several years Many keep their car for ten years and the recommended maintenance below needs to be done more than once. Depends on mileage. These are factory recommended maintenance activities that occur every so many miles on an ICE car - and not an EV. Add this up. Factor in labor and parts.

transmission fluid every 30-60k miles
radiator flush - every 30-50k miles
differential fluid - every 30-60k miles
timing chain/belt - every 80k-120k miles
belts - every 60k-100k miles
hoses - every 60-100k miles
battery - every 3-5 years
air filter - every 10k-12k miles
fuel injector cleaning - every 30k-60k miles
catalytic converter - every 70k-100k miles
muffler - every 40k-80k miles
spark plugs - every 100k miles

Now, some may choose to do none of this but it's what the factory typically says you should. Those who don't, remind me to not buy a used car from them.

 

[Bobster]

Some random thoughts before I go for a walk and then to the store to re-stock my popcorn...

• I am not against EVs but I am against gov't mandates and gov't subsidies to promote them in ANY form (tax rebate, charging station construction, etc.)
• An EV WOULD fit my current commuting patterns. My shop is 10mi away. About the furthest I travel regularly is to Orlando which is about 100mi round trip.
• I would definitely have a home charger setup and would not even consider charging at any local station/store/etc.
• I would have an older diesel car for highway trips--some of those can have up to 500mi range!
• Heads need to be pulled from asses when optimistically talking about range, especially here in FL. It has been over 90° in the day for the past few months. We all know what running the AC in an EV does to range, do we not?
• Range reduction also applies to heating in the winter in the northern climes.
• Charging stations generally do not accept cash or "anonymous" users. Big Brother tracking your every move...
• If someone runs out of gasoline, they can add a gallon or two and make it to a gas station. If someone runs their EV battery dry, they are going to need a tow...

This is a snip from a charging station location app. You do NOT need to join to view the chargers BTW--just X out the "join" window. The nearest Supercharger is about 5mi away at a fairly new WaWa store. That store is a minute or two off I-4 so I'll give it that. Note the comments about this local non-Tesla charger location.

PS: end-of-life waste is going to be much greater with EVs. No going to the junkyard to get a battery pack or other item to prolong the life of your EV. Sure, maybe a fender or headlight or something, but EV lifespan is way over-rated.