That Many...

[no4mk1t]

Ah, but the IMPLICATIONS of the two forms are VERY VERY different, and you know that. Night and day difference. False equivalency.

You are correct, they are different.
ATF is prohibited from creating a digital searchable database of gunowners. To search the Form 1 and Form 4 records is old school analog manual.
The former dealer 4473's are scanned into a searchable database. ATF exploited a loophole.

Somehow, I think this was the opposite of what you meant.

 

[Racer88]

You do you, as they say.

I remain unconvinced to make such compromises (not to mention expense) just so I can have a muffler on the end of my gun. It's not worth it to me. I've got foam plugs and high quality muffs. Plus even if I had a muffler, I'd have to wear the same ear pro at the range, because everyone else is shooting unmuffled.

It's the line I won't cross. Your mileage may vary.

 

[no4mk1t]

NO. Mr. Spock would say, "False equivalency."

Dude... you're really reaching here.

Not really.

Form 4 items cannot be moved from one address to another without asking permission (filling out more forms).

As long as your change of address in within the same state, you do not have to notify them.

Form 4 items cannot be carried across state lines.

Partially true.
Suppressors are not restricted. I take mine across state lines all the time. No permission required.
SBR's, SBS's, MG's, and AOW requires an approved 5320.20 form. As long as the item is legal to possess at the location you are taking it to, the form is approved. This is a general purpose form when the above mentioned items need to cross a state line not just for taking it with you, but also for if the item needs to be shipped to a gunsmith for repairs etc. as well.

Form 4 items cannot be gifted or sold or transferred in ANY way without state permission.

If INDIVIDUAL ownership is being transferred, then a new Form 4 must be completed. It's no different than gifting your son or daughter a car. You transfer ownership to them.

If the NFA item is owned by a Trust, and the person receiving the NFA item is listed as a Trustee on that Trust, no paperwork or permission required. This is one of the advantages of using a Trust.

Owners of Form 4 items must be prepared to present the "tax stamp" upon demand by authorities.

Strictly speaking, it's a tax document. The only authority that can legally demand to see the Form 4 is an ATF or other Federal LEO.

Years ago, before suppressors became mainstream, you might encounter a local LEO that was unknowing, in which case you educated them. Most are more curious than anything else. Personally, I have never had a LEO ask to see the forms.
Now that suppressors are so common, most cops don't care, again, unless you're on their radar and they use that as an excuse to go fishing.
Now, I've heard stories about self important range nazis that say they need to see the form. Just tell them to fuck off. They have no authority to even ask.

Now that there will be no stamps going forward, we'll have to see if anyone cares anymore.

HUGE FUCKING DIFFERENCE.

Actually, once the Form 4 is approved and you take ownership of the can, it's pretty much drama free.
If you decide to sell it, and the buyer lives in the same state as you, the transfer is between the two of you, no dealer involvement. The buyer fills out and submits the paperwork, and the approved form will be mailed to the seller, at which point the physical transfer occurs.

As I said.... everyone does what they think is right for them and in their comfort zone. Some people have a line. This is my line. Your mileage may vary. Some people have no line and believe that if you give up a little, you should give up all of it. I'm not one of those people.

So your argument that I've "given up all my privacy already" falls VERY flat. Because it's simply not true, and you're using false equivalencies. You won't convince me to just turn over and agree to registration on optional items because I'm a veteran or have a drivers license. It's really quite silly.

OK, so don't.
The only reason I have put his much effort into this response was not to convince you, but to educate others here that may be considering buying a can now that the tax is gone.

With a little luck the Registry goes away and happy days are here at last.

 

[no4mk1t]

@Bongo Lewi If you have the patience to read all the previous posts, verify that's it's correct please.

I get it that Racer doesn't want to get involved in the NFA world as long as the registry exists. I wish it didn't exist either.

But for others that may want to dip their toe in the water now that the tax is gone, knowing the facts may alleviate their apprehension.

 

[Racer88]

If INDIVIDUAL ownership is being transferred, then a new Form 4 must be completed. It's no different than gifting your son or daughter a car. You transfer ownership to them.

VERY different than gifting a car. Gifting a car isn't a REQUEST for permission. My son or daughter don't have to apply / qualify to get the car.

The only authority that can legally demand to see the Form 4 is an ATF or other Federal LEO.

Yes. I know. And that is exactly my point. I don't have to do that with any of my guns.

The only reason I have put his much effort into this response was not to convince you, but to educate others here that may be considering buying a can now that the tax is gone.

No worries. That's a good thing!

 

[Bobster]

Nofour has made many cogent points.

Regarding 4473s and gov't d-base, we conspiracy theorists/anti-vaxxers/2020 election deniers have been correct nearly 100% of the time. So it IS a given that your name IS in a database. Along with millions of other gun owners alive AND dead. As mentioned, I don't think any of us will EVER have to deal with ATF kicking in our door because of something we purchased at some previous point in time. There are just too many gunowners in this country. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just that it is not likely. Of course, someone could do something illegal involving firearms that could bring their name to the top of the door-kicking/dog-shooting list...

The PITA with NFAs IMO is creating a trust. I wouldn't even think of putting an NFA item in my own name simply because that would complicate transfer should I die so a trust it is. Yet another legal document we have to be exposed to and cost incurred.

Trumpy and Blondi are definitely lesser evils and somehow we should be thankful the POTUS election wasn't stolen again.

BUT we need to start getting active to assure we can retain the House and Senate--primary elections start in March!
You can guarantee those who deserve an immediate painful death will do EVERYTHING they can to stop any meaningful legislation and will probably impeach POTUS again and again... He won't even be a lame duck, just a dead duck...

 

[Alex]

No4, once you convince the Boss that he is not really sacrificing anything by delving into the world of NFA ownership I will DONATE my PS90 sbr to him to show my appreciation for keeping this forum running. It has likely been a significant cost in time and money over its existence and he has not charged membership or taken on sponsors.

It is cool that the tax is going to $0 and all but those of us in blue states have to deal with state legislatures that keep trying to make previously law abiding owners of NFA items become felons. It is not worth uprooting and moving to a new home because of a gun I have not shot in years. The last couple of legislative sessions have seen bills introduced that would require forfeiting or moving these items out of state. Nice job lawmakers, rather than addressing existing crime by enforcing laws already on the books they want to create a whole new class of felons. Legally owned NFA items are involved in something like ZERO crimes per year, they would like to increase that to the tens of 1000's. There is too much paper involved to lose it in a boating accident. I would rather it go to a good home.

No4, is it even possible to do a person to person transfer of an NFA item across state lines? If so, how many forms are involved?

 

[James Moore]

I think it's also naive to think that they don't know what firearms you own. OK, the family heirloom shotgun your Uncle Jim bequeathed to you when he passed and was just handed to you by Aunt Edith they may not know about. But think about all the guns, new or used you bought from a dealer over the years. How many of those dealers have gone out of business?

I'm pretty sure they don't know what firearms I own, except for the ones I've posted online.
I haven't purchased a handgun from a dealer, since before 1998. I also haven't purchased a rifle from a dealer in Colorado since 2013 when background checks became mandatory for all firearms.

I've never filed a 4473. While I can't purchase a firearm without a background check in my home state, Colorado, we are surrounded by states that don't require background checks for private sales. Being a truck driver, I frequently go to gun shows where many private sellers have anything you could ever want and presently, it isn't illegal in Colorado for me to possess a firearm without going through a background check or to transport a firearm from out of state.

 

[Racer88]

No4, once you convince the Boss that he is not really sacrificing anything by delving into the world of NFA ownership I will DONATE my PS90 sbr to him to show my appreciation for keeping this forum running.

LOL!

Nice job lawmakers, rather than addressing existing crime by enforcing laws already on the books they want to create a whole new class of felons. Legally owned NFA items are involved in something like ZERO crimes per year, they would like to increase that to the tens of 1000's.

Bingo!

 

[FrankenGlock]

I only have 3 and dress them up differently from time to time.

 

[no4mk1t]

No4, once you convince the Boss that he is not really sacrificing anything by delving into the world of NFA ownership I will DONATE my PS90 sbr to him to show my appreciation for keeping this forum running. It has likely been a significant cost in time and money over its existence and he has not charged membership or taken on sponsors.

Racer has some very strong convictions about the registration thing. If the registration winds up getting repealed, I'm sure he would be happy to give your PS90 a good home. Until then, you will have continue to be its custodian.

It is cool that the tax is going to $0 and all but those of us in blue states have to deal with state legislatures that keep trying to make previously law abiding owners of NFA items become felons. It is not worth uprooting and moving to a new home because of a gun I have not shot in years. The last couple of legislative sessions have seen bills introduced that would require forfeiting or moving these items out of state. Nice job lawmakers, rather than addressing existing crime by enforcing laws already on the books they want to create a whole new class of felons. Legally owned NFA items are involved in something like ZERO crimes per year, they would like to increase that to the tens of 1000's. There is too much paper involved to lose it in a boating accident. I would rather it go to a good home.

No4, is it even possible to do a person to person transfer of an NFA item across state lines? If so, how many forms are involved?

No. This is where the interstate commerce clause that ATF has used for years as a basis as its authority to regulate firearms comes into play.

In short, if buyer and seller reside in the same state, the transfer is conducted between them with no dealer involvement. The buyer submits the Form 4 to ATF. Upon approval, ATF mails the approved form to the seller and then the transaction can then be completed.
The money is paid before the forms are mailed and the seller holds the can until he has the approved Form 4 in hand, then he delivers it and the item to the seller.

When buyer and seller live in different states, two dealers with an SOT needs to be involved, one in the seller's state, and one in the buyer's state. Technically the seller transfers the item to the dealer in his state, (F4) and the dealer transfers it to the other dealer in the buyers state. (F3) Then it transfers to the buyer. (F4) So, three forms total.
All this is a carryover from the days before computer background checks when ATF relied on the local police chief or Sheriff to vet the buyer and endorse the F4. With NICS, it could be done away with no downside for anyone, but the bureaucracy continues.

So, before now, a transfer like this would only happen in the case of very expensive MG's because you had two excise taxes involved, and two dealer fees involved, and an extended wait for all the paperwork to process. Not worth it for low value items like suppressors. But now with no tax, you would just have the dealer's fees to contend with. (You would still have to wait for all the forms to process, but not near as long as before)
NFA transfer fees are whatever the dealer wants them to be. $50 per transfer is cheap. $100 is typical, and in the case of high dollar MG's, $250+ is not unheard of. In a transaction of this sort, it is customary for the seller to pay the dealer on his end and the buyer to pay the dealer on his.

This is why it's only really worthwhile to buy used from a resident of your own state on items like a suppressor.

 

[James Moore]

He's not perfect by any means. But to my knowledge and observation in my lifetime... he's the best we've had... so far.

He reminds me of Democrats from years ago, who always said the right things about the second amendment, but could always see the "sensibility of certain restrictions".

Let's not forget, he has changed parties several times over the years.
Don't get me wrong, I believe he's the best man for the job right now and I agree with most of his policies, but he's not the 2nd Amendment Savior many people make him out to be.

 

[bkbrno]

Late 1970's, Son of Sam killer is whacking people with a Charter Arms .44 Bulldog. A good friend of mine gets a visit from ATF agents one day at work inquiring about the whereabouts of his .44 Bulldog that he purchased. Since he operated a business in a rough part of town, it was easy to get to as it was right under the counter next to him. The agents were content that it was in his possession and accounted for so they went on their way.

In 1977, they knew who bought a particular make and model of a gun and they knew where to go to check on it. No database my ass. I guess they could have called every dealer in the country and asked them to pull every sale of x model and x caliber, then went to the dealer in person to read the form. I prefer my conspiracy theory that they have been recording sales since day one.

The NFA forms make it even easier to track stuff. No thanks. When my suppressor falls in the water 12.1 miles offshore, I have to jump through too many hoops to report it or I become a felon.

 

[clm2112]

In short, if buyer and seller reside in the same state, the transfer is conducted between them with no dealer involvement. The buyer submits the Form 4 to ATF. Upon approval, ATF mails the approved form to the seller and then the transaction can then be completed.
The money is paid before the forms are mailed and the seller holds the can until he has the approved Form 4 in hand, then he delivers it and the item to the seller.

Caveat here... those are the Federal rules. States may impose their own. Sadly, Pennsylvania just imposed a law that all transfers within the state have to go through a FFL. It used to be just for handguns with the loophole that it could be transferred in the presence of an LEO (like the seller and buyer go to a police station and do the transfer there.) The state has it's own background check in addition to NICS. Now it applies to all firearms, not just handguns.

So, as a general rule what no4mk1t is valid, but you need to know your state laws before trying to do it.

 

[no4mk1t]

Late 1970's, Son of Sam killer is whacking people with a Charter Arms .44 Bulldog. A good friend of mine gets a visit from ATF agents one day at work inquiring about the whereabouts of his .44 Bulldog that he purchased. Since he operated a business in a rough part of town, it was easy to get to as it was right under the counter next to him. The agents were content that it was in his possession and accounted for so they went on their way.

In 1977, they knew who bought a particular make and model of a gun and they knew where to go to check on it. No database my ass. I guess they could have called every dealer in the country and asked them to pull every sale of x model and x caliber, then went to the dealer in person to read the form. I prefer my conspiracy theory that they have been recording sales since day one.

The NFA forms make it even easier to track stuff. No thanks. When my suppressor falls in the water 12.1 miles offshore, I have to jump through too many hoops to report it or I become a felon.

I remember that vividly. It was on the news every night until Berkowitz was caught.

For those that don't know, David Berkowitz was a criminal that murdered six and injured several others in 1976-77 in New York City. He sent letters to the media and police claiming a demon manifested in his neighbor's dog "Sam" made him do it. He used a Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 Special, one of the only weapons manufactured in that caliber at the time beside antiques. He left a letter for the police to find where he called himself "The Son of Sam". The media called him the "44 Caliber Killer".

Now, to address how the cops knew bkbrno's friend owned a Bulldog revolver.
In 1911, New York City passed the Sullivan Law which required residents to get a license to possess a handgun. This was one of the earliest registration laws in the country. I'll leave it for the reader to decide if it has had a measurable effect on crime in NYC.

So, police detectives knew the killer used a 44 caliber revolver. It was a normal part of the investigation to go through the registration files and pay a visit to everyone who had registered a 44 caliber revolver. It doesn't say where Berkowitz got his Bulldog, but he never registered it in NYC. (Correction. He bought it in NY and did register it.)

And as in most murder investigations, a tip from a witness led them to look at Berkowitz.
He's 72 now and still in prison.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Holy shit! I'm going to take a day or two off to read all this.

I get that none of us like the idea of giving up information to Uncle Sam. Me... they have looked up my ass with a microscope. They talked to my childhood neighbors and teachers about me as part of the background check. They have my photo, finger prints, and DNA. I had access to confidential, secret and top secret information. Which means somebody was always watching me. Maybe still are to some degree. I rarely had any exposure to military information but diplomatic information falls into the same three categories. Most of the information I was exposed to is obsolete and useless but I still cannot ever discuss it with anyone under penalty of law.

The bottom line is Uncle Sam knows more about me than I know about myself.

About suppressors: I have no issue registering suppressors because I don't give a shit somebody knows I have them. That said, nearly all of my firm collection including cans are in a trust. So somebody who wanted to investigate me would have to dig. And no one in government would do that unless I was suspected of breaking the law. It's a myth the local ATF agents near you are all knowing and can look up your information like CSI on TV. They don't know jack shit and cant do that easily. It takes weeks to build a brief on someone and they only do it when there is a suspicion of criminal activity. Either you are identified as a person interest in a crime investigation or someone rats you out for engaging in illegal activity.

Suppressors have a usable lifespan that its a lot shorter than a pistol or rifle. They wear out. You are supposed to destroy them and notify the BATFE when you do. Nobody does that. They end up in a junk drawer or a landfill. I have never once heard of any agency knocking on someone's door asking to see their stamp or the can associated with it. I am aware of several circumstances where someone was making DIY suppressors and was arrested. They will lock your ass up if they find out you are making any type of suppressors. Improvised fuel filters, solvent traps, etc. Don't fucking do this. You will get caught.

The gun registry everyone fears is being covertly developed is as useful as tits on a boar hog. Guns trade hands a lot. A huge number of 4473s never get called in because carry permit holders are exempt from NICS. This is literally millions of guns and the only record of who bought it is on a piece of paper in the back room of an LGS or pawn shop until they go out of business. Online 4473s on the other hand do get sent to the BATFE. They are forbidden from using that data to create a gun registry but we all know that's probably bullshit. I feel certain Biden and his anti-gun DOJ were doing just that. So I avoid purchasing firearms or do transfers with FFLs who use 4473 e-forms.

When an FFL goes out of business, their boxes of paper 4473's are sent to a BATFE warehouse in Virginia. I have heard they have a ten year backlog on scanning those documents. I dont know if that's true or not. I suspect it's not a huge priority and they probably aren't scanning them at all. In part because guns bought 5-10-20 years ago have probably changed hands. It's mostly useless information for law enforcement purposes. Government agencies operate on very tight budgets. It is also in their interest that people believe those document era ebbing scanned and a registry is being built. Because fear of prosecution inspires compliance among law abiding citizens. Everyone knows criminals could give a shit about breaking the law. Regulation is about keeping honest people honest.

Philosophically, I dont worry about the government knowing what I have. I simply comply with the law. Those who believe the government has nefarious plans to confiscate weapons should be focusing on the larger, constitutional issues than worrying about who knows they have a firearm. They already know you have a firearm. Or more than one. As the saying goes... Instead of swatting mosquitos, it's better to drain the swamp. A lot of gun owners don't bother to vote. These people are dumb fucks. A gun registry by itself is harmless. The elected lawmakers who would use it to violate our constitutional rights are the problem.

 

[no4mk1t]

Caveat here... those are the Federal rules. States may impose their own. Sadly, Pennsylvania just imposed a law that all transfers within the state have to go through a FFL. It used to be just for handguns with the loophole that it could be transferred in the presence of an LEO (like the seller and buyer go to a police station and do the transfer there.) The state has it's own background check in addition to NICS. Now it applies to all firearms, not just handguns.

So, as a general rule what no4mk1t is valid, but you need to know your state laws before trying to do it.

I'm sure it will have the same effect on crime that the Sullivan Law has.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I remember that vividly. It was on the news every night until Berkowitz was caught.

For those that don't know, David Berkowitz was a criminal that murdered six and injured several others in 1976-77 in New York City. He sent letters to the media and police claiming a demon manifested in his neighbor's dog "Sam" made him do it. He used a Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 Special, one of the only weapons manufactured in that caliber at the time beside antiques. He left a letter for the police to find where he called himself "The Son of Sam". The media called him the "44 Caliber Killer".

Now, to address how the cops knew bkbrno's friend owned a Bulldog revolver.
In 1911, New York City passed the Sullivan Law which required residents to get a license to possess a handgun. This was one of the earliest registration laws in the country. I'll leave it for the reader to decide if it has had a measurable effect on crime in NYC.

So, police detectives knew the killer used a 44 caliber revolver. It was a normal part of the investigation to go through the registration files and pay a visit to everyone who had registered a 44 caliber revolver. It doesn't say where Berkowitz got his Bulldog, but he never registered it in NYC.

And as in most murder investigations, a tip from a witness led them to look at Berkowitz.
He's 72 now and still in prison.

Berkowitz got caught because a smart detective figured out his car got a parking ticket within a block of one of the murders on the night it happened. That put him at the scene. My recollection is they found the murder weapon in that car.

 

[no4mk1t]

Berkowitz got caught because a smart detective figured out his car got a parking ticket within a block of one of the murders on the night it happened. That put him at the scene. My recollection is they found the murder weapon in that car.

Yes, that was part of it. The witness put them onto the parked cars and the clues led to Berkowitz. He apparently made no effort to hide or destroy evidence.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Yes, that was part of it. The witness put them onto the parked cars and the clues led to Berkowitz. He apparently made no effort to hide or destroy evidence.

I cant recall when the 44 mag became 'popular'. Other than Harry Callahan's Model 29 from the 1971 film. I have one of those and it's among my most cherished revolvers. I seldom shoot it but do wipe it down with a diaper and some oil now and then.