- Joined
- Feb 3, 2023
- Messages
- 8,146
- Reaction score
- 9,766
- Points
- 168
Cool.
Hollywood, CA. How ironic!
Hollywood, CA. How ironic!
Building an AR as a display piece on the wall...
- Thread starter clm2112
- Start date
It seems the back story to this retro journey and how PSA ended up selling H&R retro parts is thus:
PSA bought the rights to H&R in the bankruptcy sale. One would expect them to produce former H&R designs, but that announcement hasn't happened yet. It would be nice if they brought back the single barrel.
There was a company called Nodak Spud that was making the retro H&R lowers and other retro parts for peeps to do what BL has done.
PSA bought Nodak Spud and relocated the company to SC together with the NS CEO who will continue to run the H&R side of things.
The NS website is of course been taken down, but I seem to recall they were making other retro marked lowers before the sale to PSA.
On the ArmaLite marked lowers:
Armalite did not have mass manufacturing capability, they were a design/prototype company. The only gun that Armalite sold commercially was the AR7. Its parts were sub-contracted out to various companies in the L.A. area and assembled at one of the locations that Armalite was located in over the years. The AR7 was eventually sold to Charter Arms and then a couple of others before currently being made by Henry.
The original batch of AR15 forgings amounted to only 40 sets. These were made by Harvey Aluminum.
The rifles sent to the Army for testing were all documented in the various tests. The highest serial number recorded is #28.
There is one set of the original forgings known to be in a private collection. The fate/location of the remaining 11 is unknown.
Armalite was a division of Fairchild Aircraft, the logo of which was Pegasus the winged horse. This logo, in stylized form (Fairchild's Pegasus was less "art deco" in appearance) was used together with the scope crosshairs for the prototype AR15's. It was also used on prototype AR10's before that.
So that was it. 28 guns got that marking. The domestic manufacturing rights were then sold to McDonald, who in turn sold it to Colt for mass production. Colt got rights to use the underscored "Armalite" and "AR15", but not the Pegasus logo as Fairchild still held the rights to that logo.
Here is a very early Colt made AR15 before adoption as the M16. Notice it carries "Patent Pending" and "223" caliber markings. Also, the "L" in Armalite is not larger like the prototypes and "Colt" is plain text and not with the stylized "C" of later production.
These markings would also be cool to reproduce on an 80% lower. I do not think Colt used the Armalite marking for very long.
The Armalite tooling was sold to Elisco Tool in the Philippines, but they just got the equipment. Elisco M16's made for the Philippine military had no logo, just text.
In the 90's, Mark Westrom bought the rights to the Armalite name from Elisco. Of course he did not get the Pegasus logo, so he used the leaping lion logo. Westrom had previously been making AR's under the Eagle Arms name.
In 2013, Armalite was sold to Strategic Armory Corps, but they are not using the original underscored ArmaLite (with the capital L) in the logo. All the letters are caps.
Fairchild, like most aircraft companies was merged and sold several times over the years and is now defunct since 2003.
So, when I decided to go the 80% lower route, I thought it would be cool to have the original prototype ArmaLite logo engraved thereon. I found a laser guy that was willing to do it. There was artwork involved to take a photo of the original, and scale it to a modern lower and make it look right. Not cheap, especially for a one off. I had more than one made, but still not cheap. But I wanted something that looked cool and looked factory for nosey peeps at the range and Barney Fife's that "just know" that an unmarked receiver can't be legal.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2022
- Messages
- 1,251
- Reaction score
- 1,871
- Points
- 128
It's all for the style, and a low cost per rifle. The A2 rear sight is still an outstanding iron sight, and it also happens to be mass produced. Copying the A2 detachable design is a cheap way to put sights on the rifle using readily available parts that are not proprietary. You don't even have to pay for the rights to copy the design.
If you absolutely needed to add some kind of sights to the rifle and had close to zero dollars to spend, the A2 detachable sight is the answer to your needs. It is functional, and it is cheap... the ChiComs are churning them out for a retail price under $30 per unit... which is less than the airsoft version of the MagPul BUIS.
If you have some additional coins in your pocket, they there are better choices. I don't see why more base model rifles don't come out of the box with a Matech rear sight, as they are functional too and can stay on if you later upgrade to an optic, but that could be a whole topic in itself.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2022
- Messages
- 1,251
- Reaction score
- 1,871
- Points
- 128
Funny side story... I had a lot of scrapped A2 Detachable sight assemblies at one point. Advanced Ordinance (Daytona Beach, FL) was a subcontractor making them for FN America (who was making M4 rifles for uncle sam.) I guess the 55 gallon drums of A2 sights were the overruns of the contract that got sold for scrap when the company changed hands.
Took time to clean, check, and sort the defective ones out, but they all sold well. Got about $30 per sight hawking them on eBay (this was in 2004/2005 when the Matech was just getting going.) While we all know there are better sights available, there is still a market for a dirt-cheap sight you can put on an AR. Something is better than nothing.
Took time to clean, check, and sort the defective ones out, but they all sold well. Got about $30 per sight hawking them on eBay (this was in 2004/2005 when the Matech was just getting going.) While we all know there are better sights available, there is still a market for a dirt-cheap sight you can put on an AR. Something is better than nothing.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2023
- Messages
- 8,146
- Reaction score
- 9,766
- Points
- 168
Hard to beat 30 bucks. I'm not a big AR guy but my norm would be an Aimpoint or EoTech. Maybe Trijicon or a Sig depending on the gun and what it's used for. I like offset irons just in case. I don't do Chi-nee anything if I can avoid it.
I like Ultradyne offsets (and their regular irons for a flat top carbine, rifle, sub gun). Not cheap but they rock. I've put them on a few long guns and subguns that have an optic. I dont worry about a quality prism or reflex optic failing. That really doesn't happen. But they can get broken.
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2023
- Messages
- 8,146
- Reaction score
- 9,766
- Points
- 168
100 rounds today
The first two rounds were light strikes and my heart sank. I cleared them and prepared to go back to the bench disappointed but every subsequent round fed, fired and ejected perfectly. Five 20 round mags. All but one mag was PMC green tip, which I chose because I have an abundance of it.
I put the target at 50 yards and spent the first two mags getting acclimated to the gun. Not terrible but not great. With the exception of 3-4 flyers, the remaining rounds landed in a 9 inch group. Off a bag, using the iron sights that I made no attempt to align. My interest was more about how the gun cycled than keeping score.
I moved the target out to 75 yards and put two more mags into it. Results were the same. Nine inches, one less flyer. The last mag, I just tore it up and did a mag dump as fast as I could. No hiccups. I'll clean it tonight and take it out again in a day or so and align the sights as best I can. Then see If I have any luck shooting a smaller group at the same distances.
I've done some challenging shooting with an AR10 fitted with fancy optics but this is not the purpose of my replica M16A1. It's going to spend its life being a representation of a gun that was what it was in 1967. Overall, it performed pretty well.
The first two rounds were light strikes and my heart sank. I cleared them and prepared to go back to the bench disappointed but every subsequent round fed, fired and ejected perfectly. Five 20 round mags. All but one mag was PMC green tip, which I chose because I have an abundance of it.
I put the target at 50 yards and spent the first two mags getting acclimated to the gun. Not terrible but not great. With the exception of 3-4 flyers, the remaining rounds landed in a 9 inch group. Off a bag, using the iron sights that I made no attempt to align. My interest was more about how the gun cycled than keeping score.
I moved the target out to 75 yards and put two more mags into it. Results were the same. Nine inches, one less flyer. The last mag, I just tore it up and did a mag dump as fast as I could. No hiccups. I'll clean it tonight and take it out again in a day or so and align the sights as best I can. Then see If I have any luck shooting a smaller group at the same distances.
I've done some challenging shooting with an AR10 fitted with fancy optics but this is not the purpose of my replica M16A1. It's going to spend its life being a representation of a gun that was what it was in 1967. Overall, it performed pretty well.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2023
- Messages
- 8,146
- Reaction score
- 9,766
- Points
- 168
I'll have to presume the light strikes were the ammo. I see nothing amiss with the BCG. Firing pin looks fine. The gun overall was dirtier than I expected after only 100 rounds, but that could be due to some of the residual factory oil in the gun. I didnt give the parts much of a cleaning after taking them out of the box. Just wiped off the oil and applied some Gun Butter in the usual places when I put it all together.
The PMC ammo runs well in my others. Not noticeably dirty.
The PMC ammo runs well in my others. Not noticeably dirty.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2022
- Messages
- 1,251
- Reaction score
- 1,871
- Points
- 128
Synopsis of my thoughts to anyone thinking about having a detachable carry handle A2 (a.k.a. the "Carry Handle") in the toolbox....
First: Use it. Knowing how to operate the A2 sight is a worthwhile skill to acquire. There are a lot of A1 and A2 sight configured rifles out in the world. It used to be all that were issued or sold commercially. And, the sight is excellent for teaching iron sights to new shooters (or old shooters who have used glass all their lives.) If you can use the A2 to master dialing elevation and windage, you can use any of the iron sights on military rifles from WWII and on. The M1 Garand sights are also excellent, but the A2 is just as capable and maybe a little more durable. Somebody once made M1 sights to go on the flat-top AR's.... product was kind of a dud...the A2 is still a better iron sight.
Second: It is the ultimate budget option. Nothing is cheaper for putting usable iron sights on the flat-top AR. The Matech is a close second, especially if you buy a beat-up used one, but the A2 is still usually cheaper.
Third: Choose a used GI one. These can be had pretty cheap, almost as cheap as the chi-com copies, but by in large they are better made. My rule of thumb is.. the uglier the better. Ones with nice finishes are in the $60-70 range, but the f-ugly ones go for cheap. They are mechanically just fine, it is just the finish that takes the beating. Just look for the honking huge weaver knobs and the obvious forging seam, and it will be a GI one. Get it, soak it in carb cleaner to de-gunk it's guts, and hit it with rattle-can flat black. Good to go.
Then you can spend money on ammunition, use the rifle, and maybe save up for a better optic later on.
I understand the desire to go straight to high zoot gear to top the rifle. (I have that affliction too) But, the iron sights are usable to this day. It is a reasonable back-up sight for any flat top. No, you can't just deploy it as fast as one that stays on the rifle in addition to the optic (like the Matech, KAC, or MagPul BUIS) but taking the dead optic off and sticking the detachable A2 on works too. Maybe not the thing you want to do in the middle of a gunfight, but if your optic takes a fatal fall while hiking the trail, the iron sight in your bag can go on and already have a usable zero. (If you do choose this route, try that out...zero the sight, remove it, put it back on, check zero, and repeat a few times... they do reliably return to zero, probably the result of having so much engagement surface with the top of the receiver averaging the alignment out.)
I actually kinda like how the base-model CAR-15 feels. Equipped with a A2 sight, the plastic furniture, and a web sling, it is an very light package. Feels like a toy BB gun. Same base rifle with an EOTech, RAS rail, and light feels like a M1A, and is damn near as heavy.
First: Use it. Knowing how to operate the A2 sight is a worthwhile skill to acquire. There are a lot of A1 and A2 sight configured rifles out in the world. It used to be all that were issued or sold commercially. And, the sight is excellent for teaching iron sights to new shooters (or old shooters who have used glass all their lives.) If you can use the A2 to master dialing elevation and windage, you can use any of the iron sights on military rifles from WWII and on. The M1 Garand sights are also excellent, but the A2 is just as capable and maybe a little more durable. Somebody once made M1 sights to go on the flat-top AR's.... product was kind of a dud...the A2 is still a better iron sight.
Second: It is the ultimate budget option. Nothing is cheaper for putting usable iron sights on the flat-top AR. The Matech is a close second, especially if you buy a beat-up used one, but the A2 is still usually cheaper.
Third: Choose a used GI one. These can be had pretty cheap, almost as cheap as the chi-com copies, but by in large they are better made. My rule of thumb is.. the uglier the better. Ones with nice finishes are in the $60-70 range, but the f-ugly ones go for cheap. They are mechanically just fine, it is just the finish that takes the beating. Just look for the honking huge weaver knobs and the obvious forging seam, and it will be a GI one. Get it, soak it in carb cleaner to de-gunk it's guts, and hit it with rattle-can flat black. Good to go.
Then you can spend money on ammunition, use the rifle, and maybe save up for a better optic later on.
I understand the desire to go straight to high zoot gear to top the rifle. (I have that affliction too) But, the iron sights are usable to this day. It is a reasonable back-up sight for any flat top. No, you can't just deploy it as fast as one that stays on the rifle in addition to the optic (like the Matech, KAC, or MagPul BUIS) but taking the dead optic off and sticking the detachable A2 on works too. Maybe not the thing you want to do in the middle of a gunfight, but if your optic takes a fatal fall while hiking the trail, the iron sight in your bag can go on and already have a usable zero. (If you do choose this route, try that out...zero the sight, remove it, put it back on, check zero, and repeat a few times... they do reliably return to zero, probably the result of having so much engagement surface with the top of the receiver averaging the alignment out.)
I actually kinda like how the base-model CAR-15 feels. Equipped with a A2 sight, the plastic furniture, and a web sling, it is an very light package. Feels like a toy BB gun. Same base rifle with an EOTech, RAS rail, and light feels like a M1A, and is damn near as heavy.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2022
- Messages
- 1,251
- Reaction score
- 1,871
- Points
- 128
Here's serial number 1 from the Knights Armament collection. You can look at all the changes that have taken place in the last 60+ years.
View attachment 21062
I am told the TDP for the M16 is a ponderous document indeed. Many inches thick. Even in digital form, it is a 69MB file.
M 16 Technical Datapackage + Aditional Prints + Bolt Schematic : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
M16 Technical Datapackagearchive.org
In short... lots of evolution in the design. The retainer for the buffer detent is a roll-pin...that would hang around a little while. The shape of the bolt hold open, which is really pretty logical with the charging handle on the top, since you can manipulate it with fingers of the left hand while pulling the BCG back.
The one change I find to be the funniest is the positions of the selector switch. Noting that "SAFE" is in the location we now normally associate with the Semi-Auto "FIRE" position, and the fully automatic fire position is where we are used to seeing in the "SAFE" position.
This is another AR-10 design element that got carried over into the AR-15. When the AR-10 actually got into service with it's first customers it was discovered that a soldier crawling along between fighting positions could accidentally trip the selector into the full auto position and turn his rifle into an ersatz lawn-mower. The safety selector was re-designed with the positions we are all familiar with today, and that design got incorporated into the AR-15.