Article Link! Michigan senator: 👻gun ban could have prevented American Revolution
- Thread starter Racer88
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Darwin Award right there.
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Bump stocks and unserialized firearms have no chance of escaping bans like this. Eventually, that's going to be the law in every state.
PMFs aren't really banned. The issue is serialization. You can still build a firearm from parts. Yea but they didnt have serial numbers in the 1700's! Right. Good argument. Not. People in the 1700's wiped their ass with leaves and sold their piss to leather tanners.
Bump stocks... the only people I have ever seen with one are dumb fucks on YouTube who get a boner doing mag dumps. The voting public sees these idiots for what they are. As many Mom's often said... This is why we can't have anything nice.
PMFs aren't really banned. The issue is serialization. You can still build a firearm from parts. Yea but they didnt have serial numbers in the 1700's! Right. Good argument. Not. People in the 1700's wiped their ass with leaves and sold their piss to leather tanners.
Bump stocks... the only people I have ever seen with one are dumb fucks on YouTube who get a boner doing mag dumps. The voting public sees these idiots for what they are. As many Mom's often said... This is why we can't have anything nice.
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That's not the argument at all. Never has been. A straw man.
First..... there were no serial numbers required by law on firearms MANUFACTURED FOR SALE until 1968.
The bolded part above is key. There has NEVER been any federal legal requirement for serialization of PRIVATELY made firearms for PERSONAL use.... EVER, in the history of the USA. And guess what... there STILL isn't.... except in a handful of the usual suspect states. And in those tyrannical states, my serialized factory guns are illegal, too. Almost all of them. Go figure.
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False pretense. Just about nobody made their own guns until AR lowers became a thing and then shortly after Glock clone frames appeared.
For example: Colonists making their own guns? Bullshit. Nearly every long gun those days was British or French. Pistols too. Although the average working man didn't have a pistol. Gun manufacturing was a cottage industry and absolutely could not produce enough arms for the Continental Army. Most of the locks on those long guns were British and some of the barrels and stocks were made locally. Not by colonists. Blacksmiths and other craftsmen. Gunmakers in the US didn't really get going until the mid 1800s.
There was no law governing making guns. Mostly because nobody did. The law passed in '68 was a reaction to the flood of cheap imported guns. The so-called Saturday Night Specials. I'm inclined to an agree this rationale was misguided, but serialization was already happening with major gun makers by the time the law was passed.
Tracing guns used in crimes doesnt work? Also bullshit. It doesn't answer all the questions or prove precisely how many times a gun changed hands, but there isnt a detective or DA in the US who says this is of no use at all in law enforcement. Law enforcement run thousands of traces every year. The ATF reported 460,000 guns used in crimes were traced in 2021.
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You're kidding, right???? LOL! Fallacy of misleading vividness.
Ummm.... yeah.... that's not true at all. It certainly got more popular when those things happened. But hobbyists have been making their own guns for a VERY long time. And there is ample proof of that. There have been online groups like the Weapons Guild since 2001, as just one example. I don't know if you've been on that forum, but the majority of them are true builders.... machining their own parts. They're not buying kits. Polymer80 wasn't established until 12 years later in 2013. And if you go on that forum, you'll find precious few threads about P80s. They are not part of that "guild's" repertoire.
Hilarious. Yes... they RUN traces. They run traces on guns used in crimes... of course. It's routine... SOP. They're not running traces on guns lawfully owned and used. How may crimes have been SOLVED because of a trace?? Data please. What percentage of traces lead to a conviction (that otherwise would NOT have been solved) based on the trace? I'll wait. Scratch that... you won't be able to provide any answer to that. And I already know that there is no such data. Gosh, I wonder why? You would THINK that the dot-gov, politicians, media, and activists would want to have that proof on hand, which would solidify the justification for serialization of firearms... RIGHT?? Ah, but they don't have it, because the numbers would be effectively and statistically ZERO.
So I asked Grok the same question for the hell of it:
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There is no direct data from the provided sources or available information that specifically states the percentage of gun traces leading to convictions that would not have been solved without the trace. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) and other sources provide extensive information on gun tracing, but they do not quantify the exact impact of traces on convictions in cases that would otherwise remain unsolved.
Here’s what is known:
- ATF’s National Tracing Center (NTC) traces firearms to provide investigative leads, identifying the first retail purchaser or potential traffickers, which can link suspects to crimes. However, a trace itself does not confirm criminal activity by the purchaser; it provides investigative leads.
- From 2017 to 2021, the ATF traced 79% of crime guns back to their purchaser in 2021, up from 75% in 2017, showing improved tracing success.
- Traces can lead to identifying suspects, traffickers, or patterns (e.g., 27% of traced guns from 2017–2021 were recovered in a different state from their original sale), but no specific conviction rates tied exclusively to traces are reported.
- Ballistic identification and microstamping can link cartridge cases to specific firearms, aiding investigations, but their direct contribution to convictions in otherwise unsolvable cases is not quantified.
- Clearance rates for gun crimes (e.g., 57.8% for murder/manslaughter in 2023) indicate arrests or exceptional clearances, but these figures don’t isolate the role of gun traces or confirm cases that would otherwise be unsolvable.
- In Chicago, only 5–11% of nonfatal shootings result in arrests, suggesting low clearance rates, but there’s no specific data on how traces influence these outcomes.
Conclusion: No specific percentage is available for gun traces leading to convictions in cases that would otherwise remain unsolved. Traces are valuable for generating leads, but their direct impact on convictions is not isolated in the data. For further insight, you could explore ATF’s annual trace reports or contact their National Tracing Center for more detailed studies, though public access to such specifics may be restricted.
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The only thing a trace does is establish the provenance up to the last time an FFL sold the gun. It has absolutely no legal weight in terms of convicting anyone of a crime. The legal bar is much higher than a mere purchase record. That doesn't even count as circumstantial evidence. It's nothing more than a provenance.
If traces resulted in crimes solved and convictions, there would be a TROVE of such data. Yet, there is quite literally no such data.... and for good reason.
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Nobody claims gun tracing solves crimes. It's a tool used in an investigation. Anybody who is or was even remotely connected to law enforcement agrees with this. 460,000 guns traced because it's worthless? Investigators follow the evidence. Sometimes it leads someplace, sometimes it doesn't. Just saying fuck it... this doesn't always help so let's not bother is ridiculous. That's like giving up on a murder case because they can't find the body.
Besides...what's the downside? Some will say that leads to a gun database and then they come get them. Besides being a textbook example of projection with a dash of paranoia, a federal gun registry is not legal. It's a very common belief it exists. If there is one, how is it this has been kept a secret? Hundreds, perhaps thousands of people would have to be involved and not one of them ever divulge that an agency is violating the prohibition of a gun registry. Not one whistleblower. Since 1968. Almost 60 years and not one shred of evidence this list exists. If it does it's the best kept fucking government secret ever. They failed to protect the plans for the atomic bomb and China purloined designs for everything, including the plans for all our ships and military aircraft for decades. Yet this list of guns and owners is hidden and better protected?
What does exist is a list of guns used in crimes. And over time, it's not difficult to determine how guns get into the wrong hands. Some are sold, most are stolen. It helps to know who is stealing or illegally selling guns. You cant catch them all but not bothering doesnt seem like a good plan.
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Seriously?
Is it naivety or pure intellectual dishonesty?
Of course there is no FEDERAL database. We all know that no FEDERAL database exists on any FEDERAL servers. That would be illegal.
So let's just require everyone that sells guns to get a FEDERAL license that requires them to create their own database and then make it available to the FEDERAL government whenever they ask for it.
There is no reasonable argument that serial numbers Prevent crime, only the false argument that they help solve crimes. If you're fine with that, what other Constitutional rights are you willing to give up in order to make solving crimes easier?
BINGO!
The answer: None.
I'm not willing to sacrifice Free Speech to prevent or penalize people for saying or writing "bad" things.
I'm not willing to give up my 4th Amendment Rights which protect my person and belongings from unreasonable search and seizure, because it may make the investigation of crimes easier or more efficient or even more effective. The answer is NO. FUCK NO.
The 2A is no different than the rest. The answer is: FUCK NO.
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You and I will have to agree to disagree. Furthermore, into the late 1800's as well, likely moreso than in the late 1700's. "Lock, stock, and barrel". Bought and or ordered through the general store in Anytown USA in various places.
My 1st firearm purchase was a 7mm mauser from the Sears and Roebuck catalog for about $30.
I remember browsing through the gun section of the Sears catalog.
I bought my first gun at "Gibson's," a department store similar but smaller than the old Walmarts. This was in Arkansas before most of the country had even heard of Walmart. I was 16 years old and bought the gun myself. I could go to the Western Auto to buy ammo, too.
My school parking lot had plenty of pickups with guns in the window racks. We had a hunter safety course given AT the school. Every proper "boy," had a pocket knife. Nobody got shot or stabbed. Ever.
Same here. Even took my 22 for show n tell. Try that today
Without this, anti-gun scum would be doxxing every gun owner in the country from the safety of their keyboards...
Maybe, but it does indicate trends such as a number of straw purchases from specific FFLs for example...
The realistic skeptic that I am firmly believes Nobama, Holdherdick et al and Bidet, Garlicdick et al started/continued an electronic list of gunowners by digitizing 4473s. One has to wonder "Is it paranoia or foresight?"
Conspiracy theorists are at 100% correct the past decade or so... See comment above...
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Distrust of the government is just fine with me. I draw the line at imagining things there is absolutely no evidence of.
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Those were different times... buying a gun from Sears or Monkey Wards. Sadly, they will never return. The cheap surplus Carcano allegedly used to kill JFK was mail order. That contributed materially to the demand for tighter controls on gun purchases. Which conveniently brings us back to the OP. When the gunless public sees jerkoffs on social media acting like children or retards doing mag dumps with bump stocks and blowing up refrigerators with Tannerite, they get the idea in their head that gun people are all nuts. Which they are not. But perception is reality.Without this, anti-gun scum would be doxxing every gun owner in the country from the safety of their keyboards...
Maybe, but it does indicate trends such as a number of straw purchases from specific FFLs for example...
The realistic skeptic that I am firmly believes Nobama, Holdherdick et al and Bidet, Garlicdick et al started/continued an electronic list of gunowners by digitizing 4473s. One has to wonder "Is it paranoia or foresight?"
See comment above...
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A mentality that resembles radio 'shock jocks' crept into the gun owning community. Social media helped usher this in. When I was a kid, the men who hunted or shot varmints on their property didn't act like they were rehearsing for their own Jackass reality show. Neither did the sportsmen who were into clays or pin shooters. It bears mentioning that men that age were likely to be WW2 or Korea vets. There was a certain maturity with them. Nobody freaked out if they had a shotgun racked in their pickup truck. Today, the Karen down the street will report you as a killer on the loose if you did that. Unless of course you live on a ranch somewhere in Gods country.
Added Note: The kill shot came from the Grassy Knoll.
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Lock stock and barrel is a 19 century metaphor. A figure of speech. Like 'the whole nine yards'. It in no way described buying gun parts and assembling them. It always meant, figuratively, you wanted it all. Like telling a car salesman you'll take the car - and the tires too.
I'll say it again. Nobody made their own guns. Even the early colonies like Jamestown and Williamsburg had gunsmiths. This is historically documented. These craftsmen made and repaired guns in the colonies. US gun manufacturers emerged in the 1800s. The overwhelming number of arms (muskets) held by civilians were British or French made.
It's a nice story but it doesn't hold water. Today, we have average schlubs (see Reddit) who cant properly assemble a ready-made kit that's as easy as a plastic model car to pout together - and can't produce a gun that shoots reliably. Imagine actually making a firearm with no training using the crude hand tools settlers owned in the 1700's and 1800s. Black powder guns. There would have been a lot of farmers with hooks for hands if this legend were true.
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It's not about giving up anything. It's about imagining boogeymen that don't exist. You cant be serious that gunmakers have no reason to keep track of their products other than some nefarious, covert government conspiracy that lives in your head. If you believe that, you don't know jack shit about modern manufacturing. Everything today is traceable down to the component level. Food products, vehicles and aircraft, building materials, drugs, and just about everything made today are either serialized or categorized in lot numbers. So are the Doritos you think we should give people on welfare for free. Is it Uncle Sam behind that, or is it simply a reality of modern manufacturing and quality control. I already know the answer to that question.Seriously?
Is it naivety or pure intellectual dishonesty?
Of course there is no FEDERAL database. We all know that no FEDERAL database exists on any FEDERAL servers. That would be illegal.
So let's just require everyone that sells guns to get a FEDERAL license that requires them to create their own database and then make it available to the FEDERAL government whenever they ask for it.
There is no reasonable argument that serial numbers Prevent crime, only the false argument that they help solve crimes. If you're fine with that, what other Constitutional rights are you willing to give up in order to make solving crimes easier?
So you seem to suggest that guns, which are sometimes used in crimes, are exempt. Applying that logic, we should not have VINs, license plates, or any means of tracking anything. Just in case the person using those things might not be doing anything wrong. We should not have birth certificates that identify where we were born and when. No social security numbers either. Or driver licenses. because they can all be used by baba yagas and tyrants who want to imprison and enslave us. Right?
If you believe it is a constitutional right for no one to know anything about you or what you own... I have some bad news. You were born 200 years too late. That cant be fixed. But I support you moving into a cave and not being member of society.
You know why I don't worry about this? I don't break the law or dance around it, daring the government to bust me. Because they will. I also generously support organizations who challenge what I believe are unfair laws thru the legal system. I have voted in every election since I was 18 and know who I'm voting for or against. If more people did that vs. bitching (and not bothering to vote) we might have the political clout to defeat draconian gun laws and regulations.
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I forgot to mention passports. I should be able to fly to Russia, chat with Putin, then return home and it's nobody's business. Maybe one of those Ayatollahs too. Or Customs regulation. Why cant I fly to Colombia and bring back a couple kilos of coke. You could do that in the 1800s. Why cant anyone do that now? It's an infringement I tell you!
If a gunmaker wants to serialize and keep track of their product, that is fine with me. I can decide whether to do business with that manufacturer or not.
It's funny how you avoid the truth by belittling it as some "Conspiracy Theory", typical Libtard tactics.
I've never claimed a Conspiracy. Conspiracy implies a secret. A database of serialized firearms is not a secret.
Yes, I've already conceded that no FEDERAL database resides on any FEDERAL servers.
Yet the FEDERAL government has almost immediate access to any FFL's database.
So play your little semantic games. It only shows your dishonesty and inability to debate without demeaning your opponent like a typical Libtard.