NGD: buckshot delivery service

[MikedaddyH]

Don't temp me! It will look like a Nerf blaster before I am finished!

View attachment 29340
At least Nerf was kind enough to cast a pic rail into the top of their receiver! C'mon Beretta, make our lives a little easier!

I like the holder in the brace/buttstock.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Shotguns have rather loose tolerances. I dont believe there's much influence by the sling or clamps on where the shot lands. There is a wide variance in patterns from one brand or type of shell vs. another. As does the influence of a choke if the gun provides for that.

I have heard about overzealous shotgun owners crushing their mag tube by over tightening the clamp. Or using the wrong size clamp.

For defensive, home protection I use defensive shells, alternating slugs and 00 buck. The first round out of the pipe is buck. Most decent defensive shells with 00 buck will pattern to about 10-12 inches at 30 feet/10 yds. Guaranteed to give the bad guy a serious ouchie. Then hit them with a slug. Lights out.

Target shells... game loads... mileage may vary depending on the length of the barrel, choke used, ammo brand and type. Just for the purposes of discussion a target load with full choke at 40 yards should be somewhere around 40-50 inches. With a cylinder choke (or none), about 40 inches at 25 yards.

@Alex I presume you are going to be shooting steel targets in a typical 3 gun staging setup? Or is this thing you are going to at Gunsite something different? This is training, not a match... right?

 

[Alex]

Yes Bongo, training, not a match. Here's most of what I know, I will know more after next week:

260 Shotgun

260 Shotgun is 'The Modern Technique' as applied to the defensive shotgun. You will now be in command of one of the least-understood and most prolific weapons systems available. The defensive shotgun can act as a breaching device, a gas-delivery system, an effective fight-stopper, and give you...

www.gunsite.com

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Yes Bongo, training, not a match. Here's most of what I know, I will know more after next week:

260 Shotgun

260 Shotgun is 'The Modern Technique' as applied to the defensive shotgun. You will now be in command of one of the least-understood and most prolific weapons systems available. The defensive shotgun can act as a breaching device, a gas-delivery system, an effective fight-stopper, and give you...

www.gunsite.com

Looks awesome. Prices sure have gone up since I last attended Gunsite! The Colonel was still alive and mulling around then but not actively involved in the training.

Thunder Ranch and Gunsite... hard to top them. They always hired the best people. Still do I expect.

Thunder Ranch in Oregon was quite a place. It's been sold. Now they are back in TX. Clint Smith is quite a character. He led a couple of the courses I took there. The shoot house was really something. I don't know if Clint and his wife are still directly involved or just preside over the new location as owner. He's getting up in years. For a while they were doing courses in Las Vegas. I've lost track of a lot of the people and places I trained in the past.

 

[One Ping Only]

So no more TR in Oregon? Bummer. That said, I can't blame them regarding the leftist 'leadership' in the state.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

So no more TR in Oregon? Bummer. That said, I can't blame them regarding the leftist 'leadership' in the state.

It looks like it may be operating under new management but I'm not sure. The site could also be a scam. I do know that Clint and Heidi have left Oregon. That was quite an operation. Spread out over hundreds of acres.

The giants of our firearm culture like Clint Smith, Ken Hackathorn, Jim Cirillo, Colonel Cooper are either gone or have one foot in the grave and the other on banana peel. Younger firearm instructors don't always follow their doctrine. That's life. The weapons change, the methods and culture with it. Clint Smith is outwardly cantankerous. He worked for Col. Cooper at Gunsite but they couldn't get along. So he started Thunder Ranch.

There were no mall ninjas 30 years ago. And 'tacticool' had not made it into the lexicon yet. No airsoft or paintball warriors who graduate to real guns. There are more goofballs with guns now than ever. Also a lot more ranges and instructors than there ever were. Most of them suck.

I've followed those masters guidance. I didn't necessarily agree with everything they advised. Same goes with Ayoob. My all time favorite is Jim Cirillo. Mostly because he was a true gunfighter and not a disciplined, taskmaster military type like Cooper.

 

[One Ping Only]

Today we drove over to the Sportsman's Warehouse and snagged the Streamlight PROTAC RAIL MOUNT HL-X weapon light, for a decent price. Woot! Moving fwd, piece by piece. Planned next acquisition- Streamlight Rechargeable battery pack, Langdon Tactical Handguard, then the mag tube & barrel clamp upgrade.

I avoided looking into the newer PRO variant (though I did want that plug-in remote switch) as I don't need its extra brightness with the 1301. The HL-X PRO will likely end-up being acquired for my rifle. And Sportsman's didn't carry the new one yet, fwiw. I could have scored it off Amazon, but it was more $$ and would have shipped ground, due to the battery. I'm good with this one.

While at the LGS, I got to fondle/revisit some handguns for prospective purchase.
FN Reflex (revisited)
SA-35 (revisited)
Girsan HiPower "copy" in a compact version. VERY COOL variant. On closeout.
CZ-75 Compact ('used' yet literally looked like brand-new) and I can't recall the other model designations on it, if any.
Springfield Armory Prodigy 3.5" (brand new release from SA)
Walther single stack 9mm

1. All the talk about the superior Walther trigger vs all other SF weapons (and OK it's ok but not noticeably better than my Echelon's- maybe their trigger upgrade is better) still can't change physics. I'm just not a striker-fired fan. YMMV. Yes they work and I make them work for me. But I tolerate them and won't buy another.

2. The Girsan seemed pretty well constructed, albeit with the original HP style lockwork and the SA-35 clearly bests it by a sizable margin in that regard with its modernized innards omitting the magazine safety (?) for one thing. There was another customer at the counter and he owns a Girsan and says it's a rock-solid sidearm. Fairly rough (and SA only of course) trigger. Some use may smooth it out, but it needs some love.

3. The CZ-75 Compact was a real peach. Just an aesthetically pleasing weapon, comfortable to hold (although my hand would have liked just a tad more grip length and it's SA/DA as well, which I like. I'd love to see what Cajun Gun Works could do for this sublime beauty. If it had an aluminum frame it might be a wee bit better for carry, but I wouldn't call it a deal breaker as-is and I'd certainly carry it. The Trigger was decent, and of course new and needed break-in. For a double-stack grip, it was fatter than the Reflex of course, but a more lithe, if word fits, than the Prodigy. Felt quite a bit like the HP grip in shape and overall ergonomics.

4. The SA Prodigy 3.5" 9mm DS...what can't I gush about? Sure the price of admission is steeper than all the others mentioned. But for a near subcompact 2011 it's a steal, IMO. I'm trying to tell myself "but the grip IS fatter than the Reflex....fatter than all the others." Will I listen? lol we'll see. It's a great sidearm. Methinks I'd like the control offered by this platform running some hot SD loads in it, vs through the noticeably lighter (and yes, thinner) Reflex. And oh yes, the Prodigy ships with a very nice trigger OOTB.

FN Reflex- both my wife and I ogled the FDE/MDS cut variant. Such a GREAT trigger on this little unit...which looks like a SF weapon. In fact, when I handed it to my wife, first thing out of her mouth was "I thought you were getting away from SF sidearms and you didn't want another one?" I said 'the hammer is on the INSIDE. Try it.' She was shocked in contrast to her G26 clone, which has, for a Glock system, a far better than G OEM fodder..and (the FN is) way more svelte. Yes she wants the reflex..

SA-35. Not a carry gun per se', but workable with the right attire, and it's fairly svelte for what it is. Just long. Such a great item. Yes please. The revisit confirmed my first experience fondling one.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

@One Ping Only The Prodigy and Echelon qualify for a free range bag, CT optic and three mags if you buy soon. Check the SA web site for that offer. That's probably worth close to 300 bucks.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

The Reflex impressed me as well. Now they have an XL version. Agree on the trigger. All around great conceal carry gun. It was designed by the FN team in the US... not the stuffy, conservative Belgians!

Girsan’s HP clone is a mostly faithful repro. With all the warts of the original. Fun range gun and nostalgia comes along for the ride. If the price is right… why not? Get it and the SA. They can keep each other company.

The CZ-75C? Awesome handgun. Also the RAMI, but I couldn't love either of them as an EDC. I prioritize light weight, thinness and overall concealability while wearing very light clothing. Shorts and t-shirt. No cargo or skateboard shorts for me.

 

[Alex]

So after going through the hassle of putting a light on the gun... they made us all use hand held lights while shooting in darkness. I also learned that my Milwaukee flashlight that I love so much will blind me at best or get me shot at worst. The drill drove home the point that a momentary switch is essential for this kind of flashlight. If I drop it the light turns off. If I needed 2 hands to do something the light turns off.

The PA prism scope worked AWESOME and stayed put! We shot out to 100 yards with slugs, I got 3/5 on a half size steel silhouette from prone and 3/5 standing at an 85 yard full size target. The guys with g4ost rings were struggling to get hits. The reticle illumination was adjustable for our evening shoot as dusk turned to starlight and I was able to hit reliably in near-darkness.

Several guys had optics fall off during the 3 day class. My barrel clamp was loose every time I checked it. The forward sling QD was hanging on by a single thread after our night shoot, dropping a loaded shotgun in the dark would have been baaaaad. The one change I am going to make is to put a sling loop on the magazine tube and leave the sling permanently mounted to this gun. It may involve a steel magazine tube cover.

The surprise gear MVP - the suspenders! They stayed out of my way for all shotgun and ammo manipulations with a great and unexpected bonus - the padded strap took all the shotgun recoil. This was especially appreciated when shooting prone. Many of the guys were in a lot of pain after that experience. Additionally, there is a strip of velcro on the left shoulder strap which was the perfect location to stick a 5 round shot card filled with slugs as we did a load slug drill. The final exam also required a switch to slugs after successfully engaging 2 hostage targets with buck.

Honorable mention goes to Hornady low recoil 8 pellet 00 Flitecontrol buck. It acts as a single projectile out to 15 yards or so, which factored heavily into dealing with those hostage targets on the final. The class began with lapel cam video of a San Diego sheriff taking out a perp with his shotgun in just such a situation. Not something I would have thought possible before this class! Now I have a much greater appreciation of the precision, knock down power, reliability and versatility of the 12 gauge. I think I have a new favorite gun!

I did not sign up for the additional 2 day advanced tactics class, for one thing my support arm was so sore I could barely lift the gun up to shoot by the end of this class. Another was a more surprising discovery about my mindset. They teach gunfighting against armed opponents who are earnestly and vigorously trying to kill me. I had some ingrained "gamer" habits from shooting action pistol matches, these habits worked against the ability to survive a gunfight. Something I need to drill out of me. So my next trip to Gunsite is going to be their 5 day basic pistol class. Hopefully with a more suitable flashlight and a different mindset.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

They teach gunfighting against armed opponents who are earnestly and vigorously trying to kill me. I had some ingrained "gamer" habits from shooting action pistol matches, these habits worked against the ability to survive a gunfight. Something I need to drill out of me. So my next trip to Gunsite is going to be their 5 day basic pistol class.

Hallelujah. That kind of training is like waking up from a dream. Range shooting is fine as a sport or pastime, but does not prepare you for someone shooting back. It's hard. It's exhausting. It may save your life. No one was ever attacked by a bullseye target. Well done, bro. Great recap.

 

[Alex]

Thanks Bongo! I don't know how you can do that for a living! Yes, it was also physiologically demanding.

An unexpected experience - the post adrenaline dump stupor.

They explained to us how to enter an unknown building. Then showed us how it is done. Then had us do it with a blue gun with an instructor giving us pointers, criticism and praise as we tried to put the lesson into action. Then on the last day we did it with live guns and steel targets.

It seemed like things went smoothly inside the house. We started with 4 shells in the gun and there turned out to be 7 targets and somehow I managed to have enough ammo in the pipe to hit them all so the constant loading drills ingrained the habit of loading any time I am not shooting. Plus the instructor had his hand on my back the whole time and was doing the same verbal feedback as the day before. Then we got a laugh when I unloaded the magazine by pulling on the bolt release, which disengages the shell latch, sending them all out of the tube post haste. I tapped in the next student, then went to my car to unload my gear. I got to the tailgate, looked at it and could not for the life of me figure out how to operate it. So I shuffled to the driver's door, looked at that and could not figure it out either! That is when I realized that I had gone through something more than just bobbing around some orange netting to shoot brown cardboard silhouettes while avoiding shooting the white ones in less time than Luke, Brian or Javier.

Inside the house I managed and shot the gun well. Outside I could not get into the car I have owned for 15 years, despite it being unlocked and with the windows rolled down. While I was in no danger it seemed like I had some real adrenaline powering me through the process of moving and shooting. Once it wore off I became honestly stupid. I am really glad there was not a cop there trying to get a statement out of me, who knows what I would have said.

The Gunsite staff did a great job of safely putting more pressure on a bunch of beginning shotgunners than is possible on a square range. Many drills had 2 students racing each other at the same task, always making us start with an empty gun. It sank in on me, I came in second place out of 12 in the final shoot off. First place went to a retired soldier who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan and now runs security contractors throughout the southwest. He was learning shotguns because he had failures with carbines and pistols. I asked him what kind of failures thinking I could share my gun assembly wisdom with him. He related some situations where he had shot people multiple times without discouraging their attempts to kill him. One of those situations was resolved by somebody with a shotgun, hence his desire to master this weapon. FWIW he also had a 1301 mod 2, his with the Zhukov forend. To say he was motivated to master this weapon is an understatement and I do not feel bad about him besting me.

 

[One Ping Only]

Thank you for the detailed reports on the course and your success!! Reading through it is sobering. And grounding. Bravo!!

 

[Bongo Lewi]

He related some situations where he had shot people multiple times without discouraging their attempts to kill him. One of those situations was resolved by somebody with a shotgun, hence his desire to master this weapon.

I don't experience that kind of excitement these days. Formerly, my role was to respond to a sudden threat nobody could predict. In a hostile environment. My job now is more about making sure an abduction or violence never happens. It's about being in control vs. being a defender. However... you still have to prepare and constantly be ready to respond quickly and effectively if chaos erupts.

Some of your commentary affirms one of the reasons I believe a tactical shotgun (or Shockwave shorty type) is invincible as a home defense weapon. Shot placement is everything when it comes to stopping a threat. The thing is... that gets exponentially harder when you are under extreme duress - like there's someone shooting at you. Consider the stress the average person feels in a home invasion. Someone who has never been in a combat situation... which is most people. You are scared, adrenaline is pumping. A shotgun mitigates the margin of error that situation creates. Eight pellets the same size as a 9mm round delivered all at once. In each shell. You have five or six of those.

One out of 1000 gun owners will become competent pistoleer if they train like it's their job and have a natural talent for it. It's hard to master offensive and defensive pistol shooting. I'm not talking about shooting paper at the range. Most gun owners struggle with being good just at that - and there's no pressure at all. I believe 900 out of 1000 can be competent and effective shotgunners with a modest amount of training.

If you take the pistol courses, I feel certain you'll walk away with the same impression as your shotgun course. Fighting is a very difficult and vastly different skill from marksmanship. Shoothouse, in or around vehicles, urban fighting tactics, edged weapons... very demanding physically and mentally. You did well. Congrats!

 

[Racer88]

One out of 1000 gun owners will become competent pistoleer

I think you're being very generous. I don't believe it's anywhere close to one in a thousand.

I'm not talking about shooting paper at the range. Most gun owners struggle with being good just at that - and there's no pressure at all. I believe 900 out of 1000 can be competent and effective shotgunners with a modest amount of training.

Still being generous. As I've said before, in all my years at the pistol range when I've been asked how I do what I do (mind you, I don't claim to be John Wick)... and I always recommend an instructor, NOT ONE has taken me up on the offer to give them contact info for an instructor. Zero. Never ever.

The vast majority of gun owners actually REFUSE to invest in competent professional instruction, whether it's pistols, rifles, or shotguns. Rather, they believe that they can:

1. "Figure it out with enough practice."
2. Watch Youtube videos.
3. My friend / neighbor who is a cop is teaching me.

 

[Stephen G]

I really liked the Choate Top folder for my 870. I had do a slight fitment for the lock- file couple passes. It locked solid and fit nicely in my cruiser. Also offers as a carry handle when locked in folded position. I had a modified backpack HK rig, pull cord lobster claw clasp, that worked well also.
Not sure whats available today. It did work well for me though. When I was skinny lol.

Choate Tool Remington 870 Top Folder CMT-01-01-12 Condition: New, Country of Origin: USA, 14% Off w/ Free Shipping

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[Bongo Lewi]

I think you're being very generous. I don't believe it's anywhere close to one in a thousand.



Still being generous. As I've said before, in all my years at the pistol range when I've been asked how I do what I do (mind you, I don't claim to be John Wick)... and I always recommend an instructor, NOT ONE has taken me up on the offer to give them contact info for an instructor. Zero. Never ever.

The vast majority of gun owners actually REFUSE to invest in competent professional instruction, whether it's pistols, rifles, or shotguns. Rather, they believe that they can:

1. "Figure it out with enough practice."
2. Watch Youtube videos.
3. My friend / neighbor who is a cop is teaching me.

Good thing armed assaults are rare. Those "I dont need no stinking training" types are a majority. I guess the other good thing is most gun buyers today put the gun back in the Tupperware and it rests in the top shelf of their closet or nightstand forever. Once the initial thrill of owning a gun wears off and they lose their hard on, they dont regularly go to a range. Maybe never.

Some collectors seldom shoot the guns they own. Or even take them out of the box. Like how Jay Leno owns cars he only drove once. Many builders like you find on Reddit arent really interested in marksmanship either.

Lots of people like being trendy but only a few ever take on the challenge of being good at something - other than being good at being trendy. They are more interested in doing a selfie at the range and getting likes or followers than acquiring a skill. I suppose the good news is bad guys with gun are just as dumb. So if something goes down, who goes to the ER or the morgue is a roll of the dice.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

This may Pump You Up!

ROCK ISLAND VRPF14 12 Gauge 14.1ʺ 5rd - Black | KYGUNCO

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At 44% off you should be pumped!

 

[One Ping Only]

Hans & Franz!

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I really liked the Choate Top folder for my 870. I had do a slight fitment for the lock- file couple passes. It locked solid and fit nicely in my cruiser. Also offers as a carry handle when locked in folded position. I had a modified backpack HK rig, pull cord lobster claw clasp, that worked well also.
Not sure whats available today. It did work well for me though. When I was skinny lol.

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A former acquaintance of mine was a motorcycle cop in the Bay Area. He had that folder on an 870 strapped to his ride. Custom bracket with a lock to secure it to the bike. It was badass. I took some pics of it. I always said if I had a big road bike again I’d fix a shotgun to it. I’ll see if I can find those photos.

I‘ve lost track of him. My biz partner hired him a few times in our early years for short term security gigs.