Pennsylvania General Assembly voting on 3-d printed and 80% today (HB 777)

<<<If the bill passes, gun owners will have 60 days to serialize their frames through a federal firearms licensee (FFL) or turn their items over to the police for destruction. >>>

Yeah... I predict MASSIVE non-compliance, as has been the case with other unconstitutional anti-2A laws in other states.
 
Racer88 said:
No way this passes Constitutional muster.

<<< The bill will also restrict the 3D printing of guns, taking away a fundamental right.>>>

It's like banning fire or the wheel.
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If they don’t ban something they will regulate the hell out of it, which isn’t much different for us peasants.
 
seniormoment said:
If they don’t ban something they will regulate the hell out of it, which isn’t much different for us peasants.
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How do you regulate the creation of things by the human hand (and mind)? With skills and tools, a person can make anything out of anything. A craftsman can take a solid block of metal or plastic and make a pistol frame.

As I said.... it's like banning the wheel or fire. Impossible.
 
Racer88 said:
How do you regulate the creation of things by the human hand (and mind)? With skills and tools, a person can make anything out of anything. A craftsman can take a solid block of metal or plastic and make a pistol frame.

As I said.... it's like banning the wheel or fire. Impossible.
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I don’t know how but if it suits their purpose they will find a way.
 
Racer88 said:
A craftsman can take a solid block of metal or plastic and make a pistol frame.
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Speaking of which, this was on GB recently, 0% AR lower... :)

0percent1.JPG 0percent2.JPG
 
seniormoment said:
I don’t know how but if it suits their purpose they will find a way.
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Yep. They don't have to. They just make it illegal. Like robbing a bank or speed limits. You can exceed the speed limit any time you want. But you can also get fined and/or arrested when caught. This is how they will treat printed guns. They cant stop anyone from doing anything. They just lock you up if you get caught in possession of a DIY firearm. Or someone rats you out. A neighbor, your ex, co-worker... or running your mouth online :)

Brit and Aussie authorities years after gun bans were put in place still find citizens in possession of unregistered firearms. A friend in the UK told me a lot of guns get turned in when someone dies. The kids or other heirs hand them in vs. keeping them and risking prosecution.
 
Bongo Lewi said:
Only effective if it is done at scale. The lone guy who does it gets an orange jumpsuit.
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And it has been done at scale in almost every state that has enacted unconstitutional bans. To wit...

NY's and CT's "assault" weapon ban and registration (aka SAFE Act). 6% and 12% compliance respectively.

IL's recent ban / registration requirement has also been largely ignored.

NJ's "high capacity" magazine ban and turn-in was COMPLETELY ignored. ZERO turn-ins.

The same thing with bump stocks - across the country very very few were turned in.
 
Racer88 said:
And it has been done at scale in almost every state that has enacted unconstitutional bans. To wit...

NY's and CT's "assault" weapon ban and registration (aka SAFE Act). 6% and 12% compliance respectively.

IL's recent ban / registration requirement has also been largely ignored.

NJ's "high capacity" magazine ban and turn-in was COMPLETELY ignored. ZERO turn-ins.

The same thing with bump stocks - across the country very very few were turned in.
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I'm curious. How is non compliance being measured if there is no gun registry? What is the source of the data for non compliance?
 
Bongo Lewi said:
I'm curious. How is non compliance being measured if there is no gun registry? What is the source of the data for non compliance?
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Ummm.... yes, there IS a gun registry in NY and CT for so-called "assault weapons." They were enacted after the Sandy Hook mass murder. And compliance was very very low. And STILL is.

I'm surprised you're not aware of this. It was well covered in the gun news media.

www.forbes.com

Nearly One Million New Yorkers Didn't Register Their 'Assault Weapons'

After a deranged 20-year-old brought unthinkable evil to Connecticut’s Sandy Hook Elementary in December 2012, both Connecticut and New York banned the sale of semiautomatic firearms they deem to be “assault weapons” and required owners of these guns to register them with the state. When the...
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com

The exact same thing happened recently in IL. Only 1% (ONE percent!) have registered their EBRs by the deadline.

chicago.suntimes.com

Most owners of assault-style weapons in Illinois appear not to have registered them as required by law

There are minimal consequences for failing to register, and whether the law is even enforced depends heavily on where you live and how authorities discover an unregistered gun.
chicago.suntimes.com chicago.suntimes.com
 
I'm well aware of those laws. I'll rephrase the question. If there was no registry before the law was passed, how does anyone calculate the number of registered guns as a percentage of the guns privately owned?

The gun news media is as unreliable as all other media. I have zero confidence in veracity of most YouBoobs.

I dont doubt compliance is low but I'm asking how the does anybody on either side of the issue validate anyone's numbers? It is in the interest of gun grabbers to state that compliance is low. It gives them leverage to push for more regulation. So I trust nobody's numbers until they tell me where they got them.

Enforcement is another thing altogether. I know some 80 sheriffs in IL say they will not enforce the law. LE in other states have said the same thing. Especially in rural counties. Sheriffs are politicians and they all pander to their audiences. What they don't say is if you are caught with an unregistered firearm in those states, you may be prosecuted. Sheriff's don't make the decision to prosecute - or not.

The mag bans... I figured nobody would bother. I'd hazard a guess if you asked, half of gun owners couldn't tell you how many rounds their handgun or rifle mag holds. They would have to check on that gun sitting in the original box on the top shelf of their bedroom closet. :)
 
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Bongo Lewi said:
If there was no registry before the law was passed, how does anyone calculate the number of registered guns as a percentage of the guns privately owned?
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I am wondering the same thing. Perhaps it is an educated guess based on sales records. While there wasn't a registry and allegedly sales information is not stored, I am guessing that statistics of sales are readily available. If so, they'd be able to know that xx million AR platforms were sold through FFLs in the state over a period of time. Clearly they wouldn't know who moved out of state or otherwise disposed of them nor would they know how many were brought into the state, but they could compare those sales stats to the # registered. For sure not completely accurate. Potentially in the ballpark though?
 
Bongo Lewi said:
If there was no registry before the law was passed, how does anyone calculate the number of registered guns as a percentage of the guns privately owned?
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Based on the gun sales in that state vs the number registered. So, if anything, the compliance estimate is HIGH. There are very likely more of those EBRs in the state than were sold in that state through FFLs.

Bongo Lewi said:
The gun news media is as unreliable as all other media. I have zero confidence in veracity of most YouBoobs.
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Can't disagree there.

Bongo Lewi said:
I'd hazard a guess if you asked, half of gun owners couldn't tell you how many rounds their handgun or rifle mag holds. They would have to check on that gun sitting in the original box on the top shelf of their bedroom closet.
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Also agree.
 
Racer88 said:
Based on the gun sales in that state vs the number registered. So, if anything, the compliance estimate is HIGH. There are very likely more of those EBRs in the state than were sold in that state through FFLs.
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Not all states track gun sales. I vaguely recall Maryland dealers were required to notify the State Police of every regulated firearm sale. Private sales were also required to notify, but I expect many did not. Communist regimes like NJ, IL, CA, WA, MA, OR probably do the same.

Which brings me to my point: Statistical reports about lack of compliance seems like it serves the anti-gun movement's interests more than it does gun owners. It's a catch 22 for the gun community.
 
Bongo Lewi said:
Not all states track gun sales. I vaguely recall Maryland dealers were required to notify the State Police of every regulated firearm sale. Private sales were also required to notify, but I expect many did not. Communist regimes like NJ, IL, CA, WA, MA, OR probably do the same.

Which brings me to my point: Statistical reports about lack of compliance seems like it serves the anti-gun movement's interests more than it does gun owners. It's a catch 22 for the gun community.
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Yeah... the stats don't come from the state. They come from the NSSF, as stipulated in the first article linked.

I would expect that the manufacturers... distributors... (members of the NSSF) have a VERY good idea how many of their guns have been sold in each state. It ain't rocket science.

From the article...
The numbers of gun owners who might still have “assault weapons” are not guesses. The NSSF said, “The 350,000 number is a conservative estimate based upon numerous surveys, consumer purchases, NICS background check data and also private party transactions.” The NSSF used the same criteria to estimate that at least one million New York residents have firearms the state banned the sale of and demanded that owners register with the police.
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You REALLY think they don't know how many guns (and which types down to the models) were sold (retail) in each state????
 
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Racer88 said:
Yeah... the stats don't come from the state. They come from the NSSF, as stipulated in the first article linked.

I would expect that the manufacturers... distributors... (members of the NSSF) have a VERY good idea how many of their guns have been sold in each state. It ain't rocket science.

From the article...


You REALLY think they don't know how many guns (and which types down to the models) were sold (retail) in each state????
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Of course someone does. This is what I am trying to draw out.

The data cited belongs to the private sector. So are wholesalers (NSSF members) or NSSF itself providing what guns are sold and to whom (dealers) to government agencies? Or to the gun hating press? Is that by legal mandate or is it willingly giving up or selling the data? Seems like an odd thing to do for an organization whose charter is to be a shooting sports and industry advocate, don't you think?

If it's not part of a criminal investigation, why is this data being given up? If someone called Proctor and Gamble and asked them how many quarts of Downy fabric softener were sold in Connecticut this year, they would tell them to fuck off.
 
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I should have also mentioned that nearly all states require dealers to maintain sales records for a certain period of time. No news there. And of course the Feds as we know require FFLs to maintain records. So why would the organization that sponsors the Shot Show provide assistance to an organization, the press, state or federal government agency in the context of gun registration, control and bans?

www.nbcnews.com

As the NRA struggles, the gun lobby has a new leader in D.C.

The NSSF, the firearms industry’s biggest trade group, spent more than twice as much money on federal lobbying as the NRA last year.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com

As I learned on the job years ago, when someone asks who has our six? The answer is... trust nobody.
 
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