Proposed West Virginia Legislation Allowing Distribution of Machine Guns

[Racer88]

Folding Buck knives were popular then too. We would play with them on break or whenever and often like a fidget spinner. No one said anything ever and no one ever did anything nefarious with them either.

Yep... Buck. Old Timer, too.

 

[Bobster]

As an educator/trainer I've seen the value in skill instruction. It works, and not just only for guns, but also for other potentially dangerous activities like riding a motorcycle or using power tools/equipment. I'm not going to say firearms training should be "mandatory", but maybe it should be? At the very least, it should be free and encouraged.

I volunteer at my club's free "Public Day" every month. All the ranges are outdoors. While I don't get paid, I get credit towards my annual membership (last year was free). I usually "work" the "Pistol" range which also allows sighting in of higher power rifles on the 25 and 50yd lines. The other distances are 15 and 7yds. We are supposed to keep moving along the line unless someone needs to be "observed". I usually end up doing a lot of observing at the 7yd range because that is where the noobs start off.

As the guests come in, we instruct them to unload the guns/ammo and put their cases on the bench behind them so they are out of the way. All they should have at the front bench is guns, ammo and mags. There are no dividers between the shooting positions. Guns are removed from cases muzzle towards berm. When not being used and/or when range goes "cold" we like to see slides open, ejection port up. Revolvers cylinder open, golf tee stuck in one of the chambers. Muzzles pointed downrange. Guests who have been to PD before know the routine and we generally leave them alone.

Unless I recognize them, I'll usually ask if a guest has been to PD before. If they say "yes", I'll quiz them on the routine and then observe to verify. If they say "no", I'll go over the routine and ask if there are any "new" shooters in the bunch. They will often lie and claim experience when my initial observations will quickly show otherwise.

While we are not supposed to "train" new shooters on grip or stance or other things, I believe the safest way is the proper way and will usually give a quick tip on manual-of-arms and demo on grip, then observe. "StopStopStop!" and I'll re-demo and observe again. A common issue is weak hand thumb over the support hand behind the slide, which will result in bite. "StopStopStop!" and I'll have them unload then show them how the slide can contact their thumb and tear off some flesh. Me: "You don't want to get blood all over your new gun, do you?" Often times their spouse/partner will step in to unload the gun for them and I am adamant the noob learn this themselves. "Knowing how to unload your gun is more important than knowing how to load it." Then I observe some more...

I could go on and on and it is rare a PD goes by without some infraction of safety by a noob. This month it was a ND into the ground by a noob. "Finger off trigger until ready to fire!" and I'll have them repeat it then show me. Me holding up my index finger: "This is the number one safety right here!" Last month it was a muzzle sweep of the line! As I'm sweeping the gun back towards the berm, "Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction!"

I often get thanked by people I've helped as they leave and that means a lot to me.

 

[serger]

One thing "I've" seen is most folks with a GI background , and I use that term loosely, tend to have a better situational awareness around firearms. The best ones without formal training are everyday folks who have hunted and had blood cover their hands and smelled the smell of something dead that they killed and it's still warm as they gutted and dressed it out. They know with guns if you FA you'll really FO in an ungood way.

The worst ones are urban dwellers living very insular lives. Their perspectives I find dangerous.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Like I said. Look both ways before you cross the street. And at your range. Good luck. Some say death is the ultimate freedom. I can wait.

I’ve said this before. A dumb fuck with a gun has a profound effect on the voting public. Accepting dumbfuckery as the cost of freedom will ultimately cost everyone their right to own a gun.

Being skilled sure is inconvenient. If it isn’t obvious may I add that I don’t give a shit about a gun owner that won’t spend 50 bucks on training.

 

[Racer88]

Accepting dumbfuckery as the cost of freedom will ultimately cost everyone their right to own a gun.

Equating a refusal to surrender Rights (to assuage a delusional notion of "safety") to "accepting dumbfuckery" is a False Equivalency.

I don't think highly of those who refuse to be trained properly in basic gun handling. I think they're stupid. But I will NOT give up MY Rights as the alternative to MANDATED training / prerequisites to exercise a FUNDAMENTAL Constitutional Right.

So, I can retain my Rights, but I do not have to accept dumbfuckery... and I don't. I reserve and exercise the "right" to correct dumbfuckery at the range in a VERY loud voice. I am NOT nice about it. I make sure they feel embarrassed, and it works.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Equating a refusal to surrender Rights (to assuage a delusional notion of "safety") to "accepting dumbfuckery" is a False Equivalency.

Nothing I suggested is surrender. That’s your interpretation. Not mine. We can have an academic discussion about philosophy. It’s not going to change my opinion about mandatory training for carry permits. Some claim infringement. I don’t. Because it isn’t. It is not a barrier ownership or purchasing a handgun no matter how many times someone stomps their feet and says it is.

I’m talking about the dumbfuckery of humans whose lack common sense can be witnessed every day. That’s reality. Anybody who believes the unwashed masses can grasp gun safety and especially defensive shooting (carry) with no training is living in a bubble. Or never had a gun pointed at them.

Guns are tools to many sensible people. They are toys to idiots. The idiots have a majority. Training reduces idiocy. And that is a positive influence on the public perception of guns and gun owners.

 

[Racer88]

Nothing I suggested is surrender. That’s your interpretation. Not mine. We can have an academic discussion about philosophy. It’s not going to change my opinion about mandatory training for carry permits. Some claim infringement. I don’t. Because it isn’t. It is not a barrier ownership or purchasing a handgun no matter how many times someone stomps their feet and says it is.

I’m talking about the dumbfuckery of humans whose lack common sense can be witnessed every day. That’s reality. Anybody who believes the unwashed masses can grasp gun safety and especially defensive shooting (carry) with no training is living in a bubble. Or never had a gun pointed at them.

Guns are tools to many sensible people. They are toys to idiots. The idiots have a majority. Training reduces idiocy. And that is a positive influence on the public perception of guns and gun owners.

The 2A stipulates a Right to Keep AND BEAR very clearly and explicitly.

I would never suggest anyone keep or bear / carry without proper training. I think it's a big mistake. But I will simply ALWAYS oppose a mandated prerequisite training to assert or exercise ANY of our Constitutionally-protected Rights, even if it presents a risk to me or the public. As Thomas Jefferson posited, "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences (and risks) attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." (parenthetical "risks" added by me)

 

[rationale]

Last month it was a muzzle sweep of the line! As I'm sweeping the gun back towards the berm, "Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction!"

You literally had to push the barrel out of the way? I would've lost my cool.

One thing "I've" seen is most folks with a GI background , and I use that term loosely, tend to have a better situational awareness around firearms. The best ones without formal training are everyday folks who have hunted and had blood cover their hands and smelled the smell of something dead that they killed and it's still warm as they gutted and dressed it out. They know with guns if you FA you'll really FO in an ungood way.

Very well said.

The worst ones are urban dwellers living very insular lives. Their perspectives I find dangerous.

A lot of freaked out liberals with Trump psychosis are deciding to exercise their 2A rights. You see them saying and doing the most asinine stuff, likely because of some grandiose movie plotline in their heads.

I'd like to think the best among them are salvageable, but the mindset is not amenable to facts and logic.
.

As Thomas Jefferson posited, "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences (and risks) attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." (parenthetical "risks" added by me)

The "safety over liberty" mindset is (pathologically) feminine and a reflection of where our society is at. Liberal professor George Lakoff proposes that liberals think of the government as "nurturing parent" (mother) and conservatives think of government as "strict father", each worldview with its attendant pathologies, and that's why they can't agree on the proper role of government.

Of course the government's proper role isn't parental at all, but he's a liberal. Nevertheless his book on the concept had some sharp insights. Can't recall the title at the moment.

 

[Bobster]

You literally had to push the barrel out of the way? I would've lost my cool.

It was a son and his mother showed up towards the end of Public Day (we actually stop at around noon), maybe around a half hour left to shoot. He appeared moderately skilled with firearms, probably 25yo. She was a total noob, in her 50s? He wanted to get her gunned up for self-defense, bought her a .38 snubby revolver. They unloaded their gear, set up a couple targets when the range was cold and got ready to shoot. He had a couple 9mm pistols he only ended up firing one mag's worth of ammo as he tended to his mother.

I will generally leave people be if they know what they are doing. I will also let an experienced shooter instruct their noob companions. But I observe and tell them I will be observing and not to be nervous. If I see any infractions, I'll butt in ("Do you mind if I show you something?") and offer suggestions/corrections then let them go back to it. We are not there to teach, but to make sure shit goes down safely.

In the case of the son and his mother, I watched as he showed her the revolver and manual of arms. I stepped in to demo grip and caution about cylinder gap then I let him get back to it. Her first shots didn't even hit the target so a quick demo on aligning sights and she started getting them on paper. I try not to over-instruct or hover--people learn by doing. The son was watching her and trying to help while also trying to shoot his own guns.

Since they were the last guests, the other RSOs were hanging out in the area. There are about a half-dozen of us in red shirts and orange caps that work the pistol range. I think one was talking to the son as the mother turned toward me with a question, gun in hand. As an RSO, we are not trained to "disarm" but to get the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. So I gently but firmly guided her hand and revolver back downrange and exclaimed "ALWAYS KEEP THE GUN POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION!" At that point the son (and we) decided it was time to wrap it up. I suggested to him she practice manual of arms at home with an empty gun and ammo locked up and to come back much earlier for the next PD. They have not returned since and this was 2-3 months ago...

 

[rationale]

She was a total noob, in her 50s? He wanted to get her gunned up for self-defense, bought her a .38 snubby revolver.

"Snubby as a starter gun" is a whole nother can of worms.

 

[Bobster]

"Snubby as a starter gun" is a whole nother can of worms.

I agree but some people can only afford one gun.
If I recall correctly it had a "full" grip (not the skinny pencil grip) and she handled the .38 recoil OK. I would rate a .38 snub better than a 9mm sub-compact or micro for an "only" gun for a noob (both using "range" or "low-recoil" ammo--no "hot" or +P loads).
In the grand scheme, a full/mid-size .22 is probably the best pistol to learn/start with.