"Official" Thread SCOTUS Upholds Biden's Frame and Receivers Rule in VANDERSTOK case

[Racer88]

There is no such thing as a sniper rifle. They are no different from a hunting rifle.

There's also no such thing as an "assault weapon." A semi-auto rifle is a semi-auto rifle, regardless of its external cosmetic or ergonomic features.

If the gun grabber were going to go after something next, it would most likely be 50BMG. But there really arent that many off them in circulation.

They've already gone after the 50-BMG. I believe at least one state has outlawed them (CA). And on a national level, YEARS ago, some politician claimed that 50-cals could "shoot down planes and stop trains," and therefore did not belong in civilian hands.

Nor can anyone point to them being a problem in civilian hands.

Doesn't matter. The same can be said for full-auto. If we go by the stats, handguns are the biggest problem BY FAR in civilian hands.

They could make an argument no civilian needs such a powerful weapon. That argument is pretty weak, but it's all they would have.

They say that very thing about the AR-15, even though it is the LOWEST powered centerfire cartridge.

 

[Bobster]

I think your local guy gave good advice. Selling a 80% firearm you made may get you into trouble. I wouldn't do it.

I'm not "in the business" of making and/or selling firearms NOR am I an FFL. So the way I interpret it is I'm good to sell an occasion firearm, serialized or not. So you and he can go back to "fudding on the Ritz"...

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I'm not "in the business" of making and/or selling firearms NOR am I an FFL. So the way I interpret it is I'm good to sell an occasion firearm, serialized or not. So you and he can go back to "fudding on the Ritz"...

You could be accused. Thats all I’m saying. Activist DA, the gun you sold ends up in the wrong hands… it could happen. gun is a red flag. Especially now. Watch for a few refuseniks to be selected and made an example of. It’s what they do.

I won’t sell any gun to a private party in today’s environment. I use a reseller/ broker guy who also does estate sales of firearms. Brokers, pawn shops, local gun stores usually won’t touch an unserialized gun. There may be some out there but I have yet to find one.

 

[flowers9]

Damn. I'm just now getting the news. How disappointing

 

[bapegg]

The only way I would touch a firearm without a serial number is if it was made prior to 1968 before serial numbers were required when I had my Type 2 Pawn Broker FFL.

We were always told to write N/A or none in the serial number block in our bound books. And we would mark the 4473's the same way. Granted that was 20 years ago.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

The only way I would touch a firearm without a serial number is if it was made prior to 1968 before serial numbers were required when I had my Type 2 Pawn Broker FFL.

We were always told to write N/A or none in the serial number block in our bound books. And we would mark the 4473's the same way. Granted that was 20 years ago.

I have a C&R license and see older guns with no serial number all the time. A modern gun... I wouldn't buy it. It's a matter of choice.

I will gradually replace my unserialized frames one at a time with serialized and call it a day. Not to make a statement. Just to make life easier. If I choose to sell them... it's no problem if there's a S/N. Or if I drop dead and my son or wife has to sell them. I'm thoughtful that way.

Some say they don't see the problem selling unserialized, guns. Fine. You be you.

My interest in 80% lowers and pistol frames was about trying something new and different. Not to avoid any traceability. I dont break the law -even those I don't like - and I am not worried about guns being seized. It's not going to happen in this country. Not in our lifetime.

I also have had a carry permit in several states over 30 years and also l have a PI license and armed security license in a dozen or so states. I have authorization to carry a firearm in some other countries. The US government at the state and federal level know who I am and what I do. Or did.

As a former DSS field agent I have been background checked so extensively they spoke to my elementary school teacher and my parents neighbors. I've had to talk to government shrinks. Taken lie detectors. They have my DNA and fingerprints. Basically, Uncle Sam has looked up my ass with a microscope.

The government doesn't need my serial numbers to know that I own firearms.

 

[Racer88]

My interest in 80% lowers and pistol frames was about trying something new and different. Not to avoid any traceability.

I submit that the vast majority of builders here don't build to "avoid traceability." It's got nothing to do with it. I further submit that probably 100% of the builders here own many serialized factory-made guns, which would support my assertion that nobody here is trying to "avoid traceability."

We build 80% frames for the challenge and personal satisfaction. The fact that those unfinished, and hence unserialized, frames can be shipped directly is certainly a bonus. That they are "off the books" is another philosophical and political bonus. But that's about it.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I submit that the vast majority of builders here don't build to "avoid traceability." It's got nothing to do with it. I further submit that probably 100% of the builders here own many serialized factory-made guns, which would support my assertion that nobody here is trying to "avoid traceability."

We build 80% frames for the challenge and personal satisfaction. The fact that those unfinished, and hence unserialized, frames can be shipped directly is certainly a bonus. That they are "off the books" is another philosophical and political bonus. But that's about it.

Agree. Other destinations like Reddit (and others) have ample numbers of members who think they are flying under the radar because they bought unserialized, unfinished frames. They come right out and say it. Some people are not very good at keeping secrets

 

[Racer88]

Agree. Other destinations like Reddit (and others) have ample numbers of members who think they are flying under the radar because they bought unserialized, unfinished frames. They come right out and say it. Some people are not very good at keeping secrets

Well, sure... but "flying under the radar" does not automatically mean criminal. Some folks enjoy the idea that they own a gun the "dot-guv" doesn't know about. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Well, sure... but "flying under the radar" does not automatically mean criminal. Some folks enjoy the idea that they own a gun the "dot-guv" doesn't know about. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Me neither. Because it's a false sense of security. Nothing is untraceable in today's world. You buy parts, ammo, accessories, cleaners, range memberships, gun advocacy memberships.... the serial number is mostly about guns used in crimes. Which most are not. If Big Brother wants to know if you own a gun (or guns) they can figure it out pretty easy without a serial number database.

If there were a gun grab at some point in the future, they aren't going house to house with a list. They will declare guns illegal and demand they be turned in. Down the road, if you are caught with one you didn't turn in, then you will be charged.

Other than helping manufacturers keep track of the gear they make, serial numbers are mainly about chain of custody. It's a flawed system but it sometimes is helpful in prosecuting crimes. Especially guns that are stolen. It's like the VIN on a car.

 

[Racer88]

Me neither. Because it's a false sense of security. Nothing is untraceable in today's world. You buy parts, ammo, accessories, cleaners, range memberships, gun advocacy memberships.... the serial number is mostly about guns used in crimes. Which most are not. If Big Brother wants to know if you own a gun (or guns) they can figure it out pretty easy without a serial number database.

I disagree. I disagree that it's a "false sense of security." I don't believe folks that like the idea of owning a firearm "under the radar" have a delusional or false sense of security. Rather, they are making a statement and living by their principles.

Your argument reflects the argument of liberals that we should surrender ALL our personal privacy or at least give up on the concept, because "you don't really have any privacy anyway.... they can find you... identify you, anyway." That's a bullshit argument.

It is akin to suggesting you leave your front door unlocked, since you know.... a criminal can get in anyway, if he really wants. Just because that's arguably true, it would be FOOLISH for you to leave the house and your car unlocked... and your safe open.

Just because you give up SOME specific privacy in EXCHANGE for something you value such as convenience in specific situations... It does not justify or explain giving up ALL your privacy. This argument has boggled my mind for a long time, as it is very persistent.

So, for some people... there is VALUE in owning a firearm that is LESS documented than a store-bought factory firearm. And the VAST majority of those same folks own multiple guns, some of which are store-bought factory guns. I'd bet that nearly all of us here have BOTH. Why? Because why not???

Seriously... what is the downside to citizens who LEGALLY own unserialized privately made firearms?

As for S/Ns solving crimes... we know that's all bullshit. It happens so infrequently as to be statistically / effectively zero.

 

[bapegg]

A serial number trace will only go back to the FFL that received the firearm from the manufacturer/distributer. Once the FFL sells it to a private individual, the trail goes cold. It might show up on another FFL's records if a private individual sells or trades it in to a FFL holder.

I had to deal with serial number traces all of the time since I had my FFL and owned a pawn shop. The trail usually went cold after the firearm left my shop.

One advantage of a Type 2 pawn broker FFL was that I could run a NICS check before accepting a firearm in on pawn or purchase. Having a person fill out the 4473 and doing the NICS check first cut down on people trying to hawk stolen guns at my shop. And I would call law enforcement if a person acted very nervous when I wanted to do a NICS check before I would accept the firearm. That was a sure sign the firearm was stolen.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I disagree. I disagree that it's a "false sense of security." I don't believe folks that like the idea of owning a firearm "under the radar" have a delusional or false sense of security. Rather, they are making a statement and living by their principles.

Your argument reflects the argument of liberals that we should surrender ALL our personal privacy or at least give up on the concept, because "you don't really have any privacy anyway.... they can find you... identify you, anyway." That's a bullshit argument.

It is akin to suggesting you leave your front door unlocked, since you know.... a criminal can get in anyway, if he really wants. Just because that's arguably true, it would be FOOLISH for you to leave the house and your car unlocked... and your safe open.

Just because you give up SOME specific privacy in EXCHANGE for something you value such as convenience in specific situations... It does not justify or explain giving up ALL your privacy. This argument has boggled my mind for a long time, as it is very persistent.

So, for some people... there is VALUE in owning a firearm that is LESS documented than a store-bought factory firearm. And the VAST majority of those same folks own multiple guns, some of which are store-bought factory guns. I'd bet that nearly all of us here have BOTH. Why? Because why not???

Seriously... what is the downside to citizens who LEGALLY own unserialized privately made firearms?

As for S/Ns solving crimes... we know that's all bullshit. It happens so infrequently as to be statistically / effectively zero.

So law enforcement runs millions of traces on firearms in the past five years because it does no good. Right. They know who sold the gun and the person who sold it has to provide that record of sale. Then they ask the buyer where the gun is. Or who he sold it to. Tell them it was stolen but not reported? Or it fell into the lake when you were fishing? Congrats. Now you are a person of interest. This is how investigation works. Does the trail go cold? Sometimes. All facts are relevant in an investigation.

Locks on your home keep honest people honest. Professional burglars could care less about locks. A monkey can pick a lock in under a minute with one of several tools you can buy on Amazon. Skilled burglars don't rob dumps. Crackheads looking to steal whatever they can find dont care about locks or nice houses. They just kick the door in or break a window. Locked doors are a bad example of security. It doesn't deter a determined thief.

There is no such thing as personal privacy anymore. An amateur can find just about everything about not just you, but your family, neighbors, who you associate with. Imagine what a professional can find. Your emails, credit card transactions and online purchases, where you go (maps), credit reports, court records. Easy.

Nobody said anything about unserialized gun legality. I said selling an unserialized firearm that isnt a certain age can be problematic if you decide to sell it and I don't want the hassle. That's all.

Liberals do often suggest giving up personal privacy for the common good. Because they are so stupid they don't realize there is no such thing as personal privacy. Like how they are pissed at Musk having access to social security. What? The government has my social security number? How dare they? That is a special kind of stupid.

I don't do missing person investigations but I have PI licenses in several states and I'm telling you I can find out who gets up to take a piss every night at 2 am. Lights come on, toilets flush. Thanks, smart meters.

Smart TVs and cable boxes report your viewing habits. If you are not a fossil still watching network TV on a 60 year old Zenith, your streaming services like Netflix, Hulu, etc also monitor your viewing preferences.

Your car, if it is reasonably new has a black box that records everything. If you sign up for those services like Onstar, the car's location is tracked. All rental cars have GPS you cannot turn off.

Your phone logs who you call and text and where you are. For those who turn off any cellular location services...... sorry. The tower knows where you are.

Save your photos to the cloud? AI can and does determine what is in your photos. Cars, pets, yep. and even guns. It also knows what you look like and can pick you out of a crowd in a group photo. Or recognize certain types of guns.

Nobody but a genuine spook can hide today. To be a ghost, a government has to be complicit. Unless you live like Ted Kasczinky on a dirt floor shack with no phone, no utilities. In rural Montana. No bank account, credit cards, vehicle, insurance, doctors, and you befriend no one. Ted got caught only because he couldn't keep his mouth shut and sent his manifesto to a newspaper.

In a way, the guy that says the government has no business knowing what guns he has - but he regularly posts photos of them on the internet is kind of like Ted. Irony. Like driving your car off a bridge to avoid a pothole.

 

[Racer88]

So law enforcement runs millions of traces on firearms in the past five years because it does no good. Right. They know who sold the gun and the person who sold it has to provide that record of sale. Then they ask the buyer where the gun is. Or who he sold it to. Tell them it was stolen but not reported? Or it fell into the lake when you were fishing? Congrats. Now you are a person of interest. This is how investigation works. Does the trail go cold? Sometimes. All facts are relevant in an investigation.

Locks on your home keep honest people honest. Professional burglars could care less about locks. A monkey can pick a lock in under a minute with one of several tools you can buy on Amazon. Skilled burglars don't rob dumps. Crackheads looking to steal whatever they can find dont care about locks or nice houses. They just kick the door in or break a window. Locked doors are a bad example of security. It doesn't deter a determined thief.

There is no such thing as personal privacy anymore. An amateur can find just about everything about not just you, but your family, neighbors, who you associate with. Imagine what a professional can find. Your emails, credit card transactions and online purchases, where you go (maps), credit reports, court records. Easy.

Nobody said anything about unserialized gun legality. I said selling an unserialized firearm that isnt a certain age can be problematic if you decide to sell it and I don't want the hassle. That's all.

Liberals do often suggest giving up personal privacy for the common good. Because they are so stupid they don't realize there is no such thing as personal privacy. Like how they are pissed at Musk having access to social security. What? The government has my social security number? How dare they? That is a special kind of stupid.

I don't do missing person investigations but I have PI licenses in several states and I'm telling you I can find out who gets up to take a piss every night at 2 am. Lights come on, toilets flush. Thanks, smart meters.

Smart TVs and cable boxes report your viewing habits. If you are not a fossil still watching network TV on a 60 year old Zenith, your streaming services like Netflix, Hulu, etc also monitor your viewing preferences.

Your car, if it is reasonably new has a black box that records everything. If you sign up for those services like Onstar, the car's location is tracked. All rental cars have GPS you cannot turn off.

Your phone logs who you call and text and where you are. For those who turn off any cellular location services...... sorry. The tower knows where you are.

Save your photos to the cloud? AI can and does determine what is in your photos. Cars, pets, yep. and even guns. It also knows what you look like and can pick you out of a crowd in a group photo. Or recognize certain types of guns.

Nobody but a genuine spook can hide today. To be a ghost, a government has to be complicit. Unless you live like Ted Kasczinky on a dirt floor shack with no phone, no utilities. In rural Montana. No bank account, credit cards, vehicle, insurance, doctors, and you befriend no one. Ted got caught only because he couldn't keep his mouth shut and sent his manifesto to a newspaper.

In a way, the guy that says the government has no business knowing what guns he has - but he regularly posts photos of them on the internet is kind of like Ted. Irony. Like driving your car off a bridge to avoid a pothole.

Look up the stats on crimes solved with gun traces.

As for your continued argument in favor of surrendering all your privacy because you've surrendered some of it.... Knock yourself out. I'm quite familiar with "the cloud" and GPS... and the rest. So puhleeze... spare me the insulting of my intelligence about not being able to "hide."

Some of us will continue to disagree with you on your position of leaving your front door unlocked because they can just kick the door down or break a window.

I'm not trying to hide. But I WILL keep locking my front door.

It's also why I do not have so-called "smart speakers" in my house. The notion of bugging your own house truly baffles me.

 

[One Ping Only]

Criminals today say "well your door was unlocked, or you weren't home so you deserved it." So as to make them innocent and say you asked for it when they robbed your house. And they get justified and you get porked.

Bullchit.

Secondarily, I know of gung-ho DA's just itching to put another notch in their belts for self-promotion that will look for any reason to exploit and make a case, where there really isn't until they make it one. Opportunists with the legal system and authority on their side. I hate saying that, but it's true.

Both instances are examples of a modern society that's lost its mind and morals, and sense or right and wrong.

And we have Governors bucking Title 9 who don't give a rats ass about women's safety, and politicians rallying behind deported terrorists and gang members, while whizzing on the victims they should be rallying behind.

THAT'S the world we live in today.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Look up the stats on crimes solved with gun traces.

I have never seen any data correlating solved crimes and firearm tracing. Pro or con.

What the ATF says about tracking:

Between 2017 and 2021 there were 1,922,577 requested crime gun traces, of which ATF was able to determine the purchaser in 77% (1,482,861). Similar to the increase in the total number of crime guns submitted for tracing by LEAs, the number of crime guns traced to a purchaser increased by 45% from 2017 (252,345) to 2021 (365,501)

That does not mean the purchaser was the one who committed the crime. 77% of the guns traced revealed who bought it. That marks the beginning of an investigation, not the end. They also track how long it was between the original purchase and the crime the gun was used in. A short timeframe often suggests straw purchases.

They also track original purchasers who claim to have sold the gun but don't know to whom. If that's the case, I'd suggest that person retain a lawyer. I have done private sales in the distant past. But only to a current conceal carry permit holder and they had to show it to me. No tickee, no washee. Today, I wouldn't do a private sale to even to a relative or friend.

The ATF also notifies LEAs if a firearm was reported stolen and when.

Law enforcement doesn't report back to the ATF that they solved the crime and whodunit.

It's like the DEA. They don't get involved with arresting junkies. They investigate who is trafficking and selling heroin.

 

[Pern]

So 80% receivers are still legal to buy and sell, just not with a kit and jigs and Polymer 80 is out of business?
Is that where this is at now? I struggle to keep it straight.

 

[Pern]

….but FRT’s, bump stocks and braces are legal and soon to be suppressors.

Those evil frame/ jig kits. ….

The way we are headed we are going to end up with a separate court system ( like FISA, bankruptcy, etc) to process the exhausting laundry list of endless 2A cases.

 

[One Ping Only]

Oregon just slid-in something that bans trigger thingies or bump stocks about a week ago, very quietly.

They are trying to piecemeal their takeaways very quietly as they can't get them through in a lump of issues.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Oregon just slid-in something that bans trigger thingies or bump stocks about a week ago, very quietly.

They are trying to piecemeal their takeaways very quietly as they can't get them through in a lump of issues.

Those sneaky, ring nosed, blue haired lesbians and their Subarus! They should stick to dog breeding.