Shotguns- the semi-auto, self defense kind

[One Ping Only]

There are many options vying for your $$ today....many of them Turkish benelli clone variants, then there are the real Benelli's, Berettas, Mossberg and others.

I know the first suggestion is the humble-yet-dependable pump shotgun, I did have a Mossberg 500 pistol-grip model that the CHP motorcyclists carried...no buttstock. Ditched it years ago. Not only are the pumps simple and dependable, but lighter in weight than the avg semi-autos.

But that brings more recoil. I've a shoulder that doesn't react well to high recoil as it once did, and so I'm pretty much looking at the semi-auto, 12 gauge variants.
The popular James Reeves claims there isn't a Turkish Benelli clone that will last over 500 rounds. Maybe that Military Armament Corp MAC1014 is different. Held a Benelli M4 a few days ago...I wasn't impressed with anything about it except its weight. A boat anchor in comparison to my old Remington Model 11 I had years ago.
Right now the Beretta 1301 has my attention. I figure buy once, cry once is good policy as I don't want to buy a replacement later. But IF there IS a Turkish semi-auto shotgun that will last, I'd consider it.

Any thoughts and input here is greatly appreciated. Thanks, gang.

 

[Racer88]

Generally I'm in the camp of buying the real thing with all things. But I'm not a shotgun expert, soooo....

 

[serger]

The thing is, physics is non negotiable. So to mitigate it's effect
you can reduce the payload of the shell, increase the mass of the
weapon, spread out the recoil impulse or increase the surface
area of the butt stock to reduce the pressure of the recoiling
butt stock

The only real recoil mitigater I've found is lighter loads and
a heavier gun.

You might look at the recoil shields you wear like the stuff
Caldwell peddles.

 

[One Ping Only]

I think a semi-auto will be fine to mitigate recoil, in comparison to a 12 gauge pump shotgun. There is no free lunch, and I don't expect a recoiless result, esp in a 12 gauge. That being said, the kids have a VR80 and they say it's very tame, but I'm not interested in that platform.

Having sold my 1966 870 wingmaster, am simply moving on to a home defense platform. It didn't make any sense to me to radically change the 870 with things converting it into a tactical shotgun, and still have a pump shotgun at that; at this point I have no desire for bird or sporting clays.

If I ever get a hankering, there's plenty of solutions out there for that.

 

[clm2112]

The down side of semi-autos is the gas system range. It's a hard nut to crack in a shotgun because the wide range of shotshells available for use.

For example, Light recoil target shells (Win AA, Remington STS, etc.) cycle my Remington 1187 and 1100 just fine and feels like nothing at all in the way of recoil. Feed either a hunting buckshot or slug load into them and they just hurt. Not much you can do with it. Get one set up as a slug gun, and the reverse happens...it may not cycle on light loads.

Pump guns like the Remington 870, Mossberg 500 series, and Ithaca 37 will cycle anything that fits in the chamber. You just pay the price in the shoulder.

Have you considered one of the buttstocks that have internal buffers in them? I see them mostly on trap guns, which is the use they are marketed for. Kinda crosses the Fudd line between the sporting and tacticool crowds. But it may be a solution for both.

One other commercial shotgun I don't have a lot of time with is the Browning Auto-5. So I can't really comment on the flexibility of the system when going from light loads to heavy loads, and back.

 

[clm2112]

I hate to say it, but I think modifying the 870 you had would have been a vary good compromise. Used barrels for those shotguns were really easy to obtain.

I used to make a reasonable bit of side money on barrel work. Converting those 28" Full Choke Wingmaster barrels into 18" to 24" Tru-choke barrels for people who wanted a more flexible shotgun. (Trim the barrel, ream the chamber to a long forcing cone, rework the rib, and thread the muzzle for screw-in chokes.)

As a home defense shotgun, a skeet barrel or dedicated slug barrel is still going to throw a tight pattern at such short ranges. For recoil, you get a good pad. I also used to use mercury tubes installed inside the buttstock. That didn't lessen that amount of actual recoil force, it just altered the feel of the recoil impulse by spreading it out.

 

[One Ping Only]

I hate to say it, but I think modifying the 870 you had would have been a vary good compromise. Used barrels for those shotguns were really easy to obtain.

I used to make a reasonable bit of side money on barrel work. Converting those 28" Full Choke Wingmaster barrels into 18" to 24" Tru-choke barrels for people who wanted a more flexible shotgun. (Trim the barrel, ream the chamber to a long forcing cone, rework the rib, and thread the muzzle for screw-in chokes.)

As a home defense shotgun, a skeet barrel or dedicated slug barrel is still going to throw a tight pattern at such short ranges. For recoil, you get a good pad. I also used to use mercury tubes installed inside the buttstock. That didn't lessen that amount of actual recoil force, it just altered the feel of the recoil impulse by spreading it out.

thanks and believe me, I've considered everything you tabled. And yes, a simple barrel swap in the 870 to a nice short IC version would be the simple and cheep way to go, hands-down; and was initially what I was considering...until my shoulder spoke up. lol Life has a way of catching up with you on things you thought you got away with doing....last time I pruned the neglected apple trees here when we came up, I screwed up the shoulder ripping large water branches and such out after cutting...I'll say no more.

Right now I still have availability of said 870 and could buy it back in a second...but we still are talking about the OEM wood furniture, butt pad....AND the star of the show, the pump action.

I didn't mention having a 12ga side by side coachman onhand if I want a quick 2-shot sweeper with an attitude on both ends.

Thus, my goal to migrate to a "higher-capacity AND more forgiving to shoot" semi for home defense, etc from the 870 pump.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

The Mossberg 940 in my opinion is the best value in a semi auto tactical shotgun. Remington actions feel 'smoother' but they dont work any better.

If you are seeking a sporting gun, the trend is for semi autos. The over and under still has a huge and loyal following, but the semi auto is much lower recoil. You can shoot clays or hunt all day with it. Not really so with an O/U. You will need to break out the Tylenol and Bengay at the end of a long day.

The only people shooting side by sides these days look like this well dressed chap and hang out with King Charles.

Many many shotguns are made in Turkey as all clays and wing shooters know. The lower end as well as some of the better ones. Stoeger, for example. Which is owned by Beretta. They aren't bad guns. I'd rank the Stoeger and other $500 guns like the Remington or some Weatherby or Stevens shotguns in the beginner category. They shoot well but tend to be heavy. Ive not heard any complaints about the Stoeger's long term reliability.

I confess that I do have a CZ SxS coach gun I bought for yuks a few years ago. It's a novelty. I never shoot it. Wallhanger. I also shoot a CZ All American O/U for sporting clays now and then. Very balanced, well made gun. But we are talking semi autos... right?

The CZ 712 line is generally a step up and the Beretta A300 is a fine gun too. Midrange price-wise. The Winchester SX probably belongs in the group as well, but I'm not a Winchester fan.

Sporting... I'd go with a Benelli Montefeltro, Beretta A400 (or better), or a Browning Maxus (or A5 if you are nostalgic). All excellent. I shoot all 3. Above those, the prices rise pretty sharply. These are all great sporting guns and reasonably affordable.

Should I presume you are leaning tactical with your interest in the Beretta 1301? That's a good choice in that category. The Benelli M4 is pure awesome too. In the same breath I'll reiterate the Mossberg 940 Pro is an outstanding gun. if it's good enough for Jerry Mikulek, it's good enough for me. Not as refined as the Italians but it's a great shotgun. I have one of those also. Love it. I'd buy one of those three and forget the rest if your scenario is tactical. There's nothing better out there.

Bear in mind that to hone your shotgun skills clays clubs are a good place to do that and they generally don't like people shooting tactical shotguns. Maybe consider sporting and get the best of both worlds? Something to consider.

I've been shooting clays and a wingshooter since I was knee high to a grasshopper. I have a lifelong preoccupation with smoothbores.

 

[Alex]

Bear in mind that to hone your shotgun skills clays clubs are a good place to do that and they generally don't like people shooting tactical shotguns. Maybe consider sporting and get the best of both worlds? Something to consider.

This weekend was my first sporting clays match. My only shotgun is a Mossy 930 JM Pro. It barely met the minimum height requirement to fit the gun racks at each station. It worked like a champ with the AA Handicap loads but the gun has the Or3gun adjustable recoil spring plug which I set to the lowest position.

That match kinda felt like an amusement park for shooting enthusiasts with little orange discs arcing through the air in every direction, only to dissappear in black puffs. That rarely happened for me, usually it was just a few chunks coming off. But it happened enough to score a 63 out of 100. The guys on my squad were surprised I did that well with my little gun. A couple of them had over/unders, I can see the advantage there as it was a chore to only have 2 shells in the gun at any time. They also extolled the virtues of being able to have the ability to put different chokes in each barrel. One guy changed chokes at every station.

I don't know if I will get good at sporting clays due to my eyes. I am right handed but left eye dominant and had to close an eye to sight at the targets. Maybe I will try shooting southpaw next time.

 

[One Ping Only]

I shot clays many, many years ago regularly. So much fun, esp when you have a shotgun that just fits you right and can’t seem to miss lol…but I haven’t done that in many years, and sadly the model 11 is long gone. So yep, right now I’m looking for a tactical (and I don’t like using the term..) semiautomatic 12. Likely the 1301. I need to go look at the mossberg again and as you said, they are good enough for JM…

If I want to get back into clays in the future or maybe some quail hunting, I’ll pick up something appropriate for that.

 

[One Ping Only]

The Mossberg 940 in my opinion is the best value in a semi auto tactical shotgun. Remington actions feel 'smoother' but they dont work any better.

If you are seeking a sporting gun, the trend is for semi autos. The over and under still has a huge and loyal following, but the semi auto is much lower recoil. You can shoot clays or hunt all day with it. Not really so with an O/U. You will need to break out the Tylenol and Bengay at the end of a long day.

The only people shooting side by sides these days look like this well dressed chap and hang out with King Charles.

View attachment 19235

Many many shotguns are made in Turkey as all clays and wing shooters know. The lower end as well as some of the better ones. Stoeger, for example. Which is owned by Beretta. They aren't bad guns. I'd rank the Stoeger and other $500 guns like the Remington or some Weatherby or Stevens shotguns in the beginner category. They shoot well but tend to be heavy. Ive not heard any complaints about the Stoeger's long term reliability.

I confess that I do have a CZ SxS coach gun I bought for yuks a few years ago. It's a novelty. I never shoot it. Wallhanger. I also shoot a CZ All American O/U for sporting clays now and then. Very balanced, well made gun. But we are talking semi autos... right?

The CZ 712 line is generally a step up and the Beretta A300 is a fine gun too. Midrange price-wise. The Winchester SX probably belongs in the group as well, but I'm not a Winchester fan.

Sporting... I'd go with a Benelli Montefeltro, Beretta A400 (or better), or a Browning Maxus (or A5 if you are nostalgic). All excellent. I shoot all 3. Above those, the prices rise pretty sharply. These are all great sporting guns and reasonably affordable.

Should I presume you are leaning tactical with your interest in the Beretta 1301? That's a good choice in that category. The Benelli M4 is pure awesome too. In the same breath I'll reiterate the Mossberg 940 Pro is an outstanding gun. if it's good enough for Jerry Mikulek, it's good enough for me. Not as refined as the Italians but it's a great shotgun. I have one of those also. Love it. I'd buy one of those three and forget the rest if your scenario is tactical. There's nothing better out there.

Bear in mind that to hone your shotgun skills clays clubs are a good place to do that and they generally don't like people shooting tactical shotguns. Maybe consider sporting and get the best of both worlds? Something to consider.

I've been shooting clays and a wingshooter since I was knee high to a grasshopper. I have a lifelong preoccupation with smoothbores.

Yes, I’m leaning “tactical” for this particular item…and am looking into the Mossberg 940 as well. Thanks for the reminder!

 

[Bongo Lewi]

The shorter tac guns mentioned are great for home defense and three gun. It's not easy to swing a 30 inch barrel around corners or narrow hallways of a home. I like shorties for that.

I was politely shunned at my former club like an Amish who broke the ordnung. I brought a tactical gun one day. I did OK, but as @Alex mentioned, you shoot your best when you have the right gun for the job. One guy said, "You know, we don't allow shotguns with grips here". I get it. They don't want reckless dipshits and Rambo wannabes in their club. I don't blame them. I just wanted to see how the gun performed since it was relatively new. Lots of tradition and occasional snobbery in trap/skeet/clays clubs. I have a simple White Wing foot-operated clay tosser that I can use on my own property now. It's limited in what to can do but better than nothing.

On the other hand, I was invited to a pheasant shoot not long ago. Most of the attendees were working guys who had affordable camo duck guns (lots of Winchesters) and were there to put meat on the table. Some of them looked at me like I was Lord Fauntleroy with my Beretta and Benelli with fancy AA stocks. My bad. It's a beer and bbq event and I show up like it's caviar and champagne. I felt like a jerk off. I also didn't think shooting captive pheasants thrown into the air in front of you was very sporting. I was introduced to real pheasant hunting at a very young age. Multiple lessons learned.

The reason I advocate for shooting clays to hone your shotgun skills is that in real life, targets also move. Three gun style shooting is great fun and acclimates you to shooting on the move, but it's still fixed target shooting. In a way, like pistol shooting at the range. Helpful to improve your form, but standing in a lane shooting paper and not being able to shoot from the draw does not improve your defensive shooting ability.

 

[One Ping Only]

The shorter tac guns mentioned are great for home defense and three gun. It's not easy to swing a 30 inch barrel around corners or narrow hallways of a home. I like shorties for that.

I was politely shunned at my former club like an Amish who broke the ordnung. I brought a tactical gun one day. I did OK, but as @Alex mentioned, you shoot your best when you have the right gun for the job. One guy said, "You know, we don't allow shotguns with grips here". I get it. They don't want reckless dipshits and Rambo wannabes in their club. I don't blame them. I just wanted to see how the gun performed since it was relatively new. Lots of tradition and occasional snobbery in trap/skeet/clays clubs. I have a simple White Wing foot-operated clay tosser that I can use on my own property now. It's limited in what to can do but better than nothing.

On the other hand, I was invited to a pheasant shoot not long ago. Most of the attendees were working guys who had affordable camo duck guns (lots of Winchesters) and were there to put meat on the table. Some of them looked at me like I was Lord Fauntleroy with my Beretta and Benelli with fancy AA stocks. My bad. It's a beer and bbq event and I show up like it's caviar and champagne. I felt like a jerk off. I also didn't think shooting captive pheasants thrown into the air in front of you was very sporting. I was introduced to real pheasant hunting at a very young age. Multiple lessons learned.

The reason I advocate for shooting clays to hone your shotgun skills is that in real life, targets also move. Three gun style shooting is great fun and acclimates you to shooting on the move, but it's still fixed target shooting. In a way, like pistol shooting at the range. Helpful to improve your form, but standing in a lane shooting paper and not being able to shoot from the draw does not improve your defensive shooting ability.

All true. And isn’t it interesting the hypocrisy of looking down on you because of those gorgeous AA stocks (I’m a sucker for gorgeous figuring on stocks or on guitar tops…) but they are releasing captive birds for what they call a “hunt”…what a crock. That’s like shooting fish in a barrel.

We did it ye olde fashioned way, as you did. Walk it, flush em out…

And as you suggest, clays are good practice for a number of reasons. FWIW, we have a great range here for that, just west of town close by. The call “Pull” does sound very inviting, and my missus has expressed interest in that event. She’s always been a “where’s YOURS?” gal when I’m getting a new firearm. lol.

 

[One Ping Only]

This weekend was my first sporting clays match. My only shotgun is a Mossy 930 JM Pro. It barely met the minimum height requirement to fit the gun racks at each station. It worked like a champ with the AA Handicap loads but the gun has the Or3gun adjustable recoil spring plug which I set to the lowest position.

That match kinda felt like an amusement park for shooting enthusiasts with little orange discs arcing through the air in every direction, only to dissappear in black puffs. That rarely happened for me, usually it was just a few chunks coming off. But it happened enough to score a 63 out of 100. The guys on my squad were surprised I did that well with my little gun. A couple of them had over/unders, I can see the advantage there as it was a chore to only have 2 shells in the gun at any time. They also extolled the virtues of being able to have the ability to put different chokes in each barrel. One guy changed chokes at every station.

I don't know if I will get good at sporting clays due to my eyes. I am right handed but left eye dominant and had to close an eye to sight at the targets. Maybe I will try shooting southpaw next time.

O/U is so CLASSIC. Dad used to have a Winchester 101 in the seventies that fit him like it was custom-tailored. Honestly, and he couldn’t miss with that thing. He’d a Beretta previous to that and he couldn’t bond with it at all. Go figure. It just goes to show how subjective and personal it can be, and yes, “the right tool for the right job”.

That’s being said, whether it’s a semi, O/U, or pump effectively used to hit the target, ya can’t argue with that! Glad you got out there and got acquainted with clays. We were in the LGS a few days back and, there were stacks of boxes of clays on sale…and I did feel more than a twinge of longing to do that again. Now we’re talking about it here. Serendipity. And funny how MEC presses have caught my attention…Somebody out the at range is selling theirs…

Thanks, Alex!

 

[One Ping Only]

Also considering the Remington V3 tactical. But they aren't the easiest to find.