Thoughts on FRT triggers post settlement....

[Bongo Lewi]

I have no desire to own such a thing. Remember the DIAS in the 80's? People gave them out as key chain ornaments or sold them for a few dollars. Perfectly legal until it wasn't. There is a kid in jail right now because he made and sold credit card bottle openers. The cut out of the card was in the flattened shape of the DIAS and if someone was so inclined, they could cut it out and bend it. That was the same to the ATF and a jury convicted him.

If I did want such a thing I wouldn't be buying it online and or paying with a credit card. Hell, if I bought an FRT at a gun show, I would be dressed in a burka with latex gloves on using cash I had not touched. Problem is, I wouldn't get very far into the show dressed like that around these parts.

La hawla wala quwwata illa billah.

Sometimes you have to cope with unfavorable conditions

I dont remember the credit card thing. I was doing something else in the 80s. Like dating cheerleaders. The early 80's anyway.

 

[Racer88]

Apparently, there is a program for the feds to return the FRTs to the owners from whom they confiscated them. Hmmm.... Do that, and I think you'll be on the "double secret probation" list. I wouldn't take it back.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Apparently, there is a program for the feds to return the FRTs to the owners from whom they confiscated them. Hmmm.... Do that, and I think you'll be on the "double secret probation" list. I wouldn't take it back.

That’s like your wife’s boyfriend promising he will get her home by 10 pm. And you agree.

Taking it back or not. You are already on the shit list. And there’s no way to be removed from it.

 

[Racer88]

That’s like your wife’s boyfriend promising he will get her home by 10 pm. And you agree.

Taking it back or not. You are already on the shit list. And there’s no way to be removed from it.

Yes.... you're already on the list before it was confiscated... and then again when it was confiscated. But I'd pass on getting triple-listed when they return it to me.

 

[James Moore]

I have no desire to own such a thing. Remember the DIAS in the 80's?

Yes, they've been considered machine guns since 1981, no matter what form in which they where created or manufactured. People thought they could get away with putting them on a template that the end user had to complete. They were still auto sears and illegal.

The FRTs have been determined NOT to be machine guns. So they are legal until that determination changes. If it does change in the future, I'm sure you would have to opportunity to surrender any FRTs without any legal repercussions.

 

[James Moore]

Apparently, there is a program for the feds to return the FRTs to the owners from whom they confiscated them. Hmmm.... Do that, and I think you'll be on the "double secret probation" list. I wouldn't take it back.

I really don't understand the reluctance of some people regarding FRTs. Right now, they are probably safer to buy and possess than an 80% receiver. There's still a lot of gray area surrounding 80% receivers, unlike FRTs, which have been determined by the ATF and DOJ to be perfectly legal. Ask the ATF or DOJ about the legality of 80s.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

@Racer88 That's a fact. I feel certain these triggers will be illegal once again and the law will confiscate sales records of those who bought them.

Or maybe not. The juice just ain’t worth the squeeze to me. I can fire a semi auto rifle fast enough.

If faced with overwhelming force that requires a high rate of fire…. I suggest a hasty retreat. Running in the opposite direction. Live to fight another day.

 

[Racer88]

I really don't understand the reluctance of some people regarding FRTs. Right now, they are probably safer to buy and possess than an 80% receiver. There's still a lot of gray area surrounding 80% receivers, unlike FRTs, which have been determined by the ATF and DOJ to be perfectly legal. Ask the ATF or DOJ about the legality of 80s.

Really? You don't understand how a certain fed agency changes the rules on the fly and uses them against you later? To wit... Bump stocks were determined by the alphabet agency to be perfectly legal.... until they changed their mind.... and then they weren't.

I wouldn't touch an FRT with your 10-foot pole. I would not buy one retail. I would not take one back from the feds that they had previously confiscated. "Naaaa.... you guys can keep it."

 

[James Moore]

Really? You don't understand how a certain fed agency changes the rules on the fly and uses them against you later? To wit... Bump stocks were determined by the alphabet agency to be perfectly legal.... until they changed their mind.... and then they weren't.

I know that when bump stocks were determined to be illegal, there was plenty of warning and a grace period to turn yours in or destroy them. I don't recall ATF suddenly deciding they were illegal and then overnight start kicking down doors of people who bought them. It's just like when they changed the rules on frames and receivers, we were given plenty of warning.
No, I really don't understand the reluctance.

 

[Racer88]

. I don't recall ATF suddenly deciding they were illegal and then overnight start kicking down doors of people who bought them.

I didn't suggest they started kicking in doors overnight. But they DID decide to ban them overnight. Yes... plenty of warning before enforcement. But the decision to ARBITRARILY change from legal to illegal was instantaneous.

Warning has nothing to do with it. It's their FICKLENESS that is concerning. So, you may trust them and fail to understand that many of us logically do NOT trust them. They've broken any trust we previously had with them. Same with the CDC and WHO. They lied to us.

The alphabet crew also lied to us. They said those items were legal. Even wrote official letters to that effect. Then they changed their minds. Bam! Now illegal. You don't understand why many of us don't trust them. We don't understand why you DO trust them.

I'll pass on FRTs, "braces," etc. Do I think they should be legal? Of course. I think full-auto should be legal and available, too. But while there is any ambiguity... I'm going to pass.

 

[James Moore]

So, you may trust them and fail to understand that many of us logically do NOT trust them.

No, I don't trust them and am aware that they can(even if illegally) change the rules overnight. I do trust that there are certain rules that they must play by also. One of those rules is they can't decide that something is illegal and then immediately start kicking down doors.

But while there is any ambiguity...

That's the thing. There is no ambiguity right now. FRTs are legal.

I could understand if you were basing your decision on financial concerns.
Saying you don't want to invest in a FRT when tomorrow they could become illegal and you either have to destroy it or surrender it to the ATF, is understandable.
I just don't understand the reluctance simply because the law may change.

 

[clm2112]

Well, it shipped. Not from Texas, but from Utah. Kinda confirms that this is one of the units Delta Team Tactical was selling. Rare Breed didn't move the inventory, they are just having it drop-shipped. (DTT is based in Orem UT.) I haven't found any information about a lawsuit between Rare Breed and DTT, so for all I know DTT was the actual manufacturer of Rare Breed's triggers before all this started. That wouldn't be abnormal in the industry, where job-shops are common.

I do get a laugh at some of the comments posted here thus far. A few make me wonder why the posters even bother belonging to a group dedicated to building firearms. As it stands right now, they are legal in the state where I live. As are 80% firearms. Will it get confiscated at some time in the future? Nobody got issued a crystal ball that works any better than the toy Magic 8-Ball I have on my desk, so that will just have to wait and see. At my age, the future is more about arthritis pain than worrying about what the feds might do four years from now.

Meanwhile, I'll just do what I usually do. When it shows up, the first thing will be taking it apart to see how it works in detail. I already know the theory behind it, but the curious engineer in me wants to peek under the hood to see how it was done. The knowledge gained is worth the price of admission from my perspective.

How bad was the financial price: So far, $520 shipped, with an extra dollar donation to the legal fund that fought the court case. I'm not bitching. I've spent more on fireams that I bought with the sole intent of taking apart so I could understand fully before making my own.

 

[Racer88]

That's the thing. There is no ambiguity right now. FRTs are legal.

The ambiguity has already been evident. Legal. Not legal. Legal. What's next?

To quote Michael Scott from "The Office".... snip, snap, snip, snap! LOL!


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hshkdneE8o

I could understand if you were basing your decision on financial concerns.
Saying you don't want to invest in a FRT when tomorrow they could become illegal and you either have to destroy it or surrender it to the ATF, is understandable.
I just don't understand the reluctance simply because the law may change.

Ummm,... no. It's not financial. But I'd hardly call it an "investment."

It's whether the "juice is worth the squeeze." I'm sure I'm already on enough lists. I don't want to be on another one.

 

[FrankenGlock]

Overturning Chevron is why these are not illegal. Now, three letter agencies can't make or change rules or laws as they see fit. SCOTUS made it clear that only congress can make, change, or interpret laws. The federal law is clear, one action of the trigger. The FRT works on one action of the trigger principle. It either does or doesn't fit that mold and the FRT does work on the basis of one pull one round.

 

[James Moore]

I'm sure I'm already on enough lists. I don't want to be on another one.

I understand that the Trump administration is combining all the lists into 1 Big Beautiful List.

 

[Racer88]

I understand that the Trump administration is combining all the lists into 1 Big Beautiful List.

LOL! You win the interwebz for the day.

 

[no4mk1t]

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the ATF is capricious in its decisions and regularly reverses itself. Peeps think that by writing a letter they are "in the clear". Nope, it just gets the bureaucrats thinking and then they change their mind.

In 2004, ATF sent a letter to Brian Blakley who figured out how to rig a shoelace to make a Mini 14 fire "real fast". This may be the grand daddy of FRT's. Anyway, ATF replied that the shoelace he used was now a machine gun. So, Blakely did a Form 1 on his shoelace and attached a metal band with a serial number to it.
I'm guessing this letter made the rounds and all the alphabet agencies had a good laugh at ATF's expense. A few months later, ATF sent another letter to Blakely rescinding the first letter saying that the shoelace by itself was not a machinegun...unless rigged to a Mini 14, and then it was.

I have every expectation that when the political winds in DC swing around, that ATF will be up to their old tricks again. Don't be a blip on their radar when that time comes.

 

[Racer88]

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the ATF is capricious in its decisions and regularly reverses itself. Peeps think that by writing a letter they are "in the clear". Nope, it just gets the bureaucrats thinking and then they change their mind.

In 2004, ATF sent a letter to Brian Blakley who figured out how to rig a shoelace to make a Mini 14 fire "real fast". This may be the grand daddy of FRT's. Anyway, ATF replied that the shoelace he used was now a machine gun. So, Blakely did a Form 1 on his shoelace and attached a metal band with a serial number to it.
I'm guessing this letter made the rounds and all the alphabet agencies had a good laugh at ATF's expense. A few months later, ATF sent another letter to Blakely rescinding the first letter saying that the shoelace by itself was not a machinegun...unless rigged to a Mini 14, and then it was.

I have every expectation that when the political winds in DC swing around, that ATF will be up to their old tricks again. Don't be a blip on their radar when that time comes.

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That reminds me of this gem:

 

[no4mk1t]

That reminds me of this gem:
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I know Bill Arevalo personally. He's one of the admins on NFATalk.
I don't think they have the sense of humor they had back then. I've heard entries like this will now get your form denied.

 

[clm2112]

It showed up via UPS. I'm keeping the receipt and packaging should there be any legal changes in status in the future (just hedging a little here...I don't know if will have any benefit, probably not, but couldn't hurt.)

The trigger is completely devoid of markings. It is just anodized black. Like these were assembled from parts in the middle of production when the ownership got transferred. (Not really surprising, Crane Cams used to hold off on marking their products to just before packaging just so the inventory could be sold as their own, or to a 3rd party as their own.) I didn't pull the pins out yet. After initial testing, I'll take it apart. Looks like it will come apart the same way a Timney or any other cassette triggers. The hammer and trigger ride on tubes which the normal pins go through to hold the entire cassette in place in the lower.

Function wise, it is appears correct. It passes dry-fire tests installed in a Anderson lower. There is a bit of an issue attaching uppers. The upper lever needs to be pulled forward to attach the upper as it hits the underside of the BCG. I used a 0.010" feeler gauge to shove the spring-loaded lever ahead of the BCG to close the upper and insert the rear take-down pin.

One perhaps unintended feature of the trigger... the hammer will not release without simulating the presence of a BCG in battery by moving the lever forward. It even does that in single shot mode. So testing a lower without the upper means holding the in battery lever with your thumb while depressing the trigger in order to get the hammer to drop.

So, got a few hours this morning to go try it out. Got old 20 round M-16 magazines loaded up for test (1 round only, then 3 rounds, then 5 rounds, etc. to see how it behaves.) Just waiting for a civilized hour of the morning.