Toyota has given up on EVs. Not.

[Bobster]

Kind of like an air cooled Beetle - where does the heat come from?

On a air-cooled Beetle heat was sucked in from metal shrouds around the cylinder jugs, through tubes routed to channels along the floorboards. VERY inefficient, especially if the shrouding/tubes/floorboards had rotted away. I had a VW THING (Kubelwagen) that got driven maybe 3-4 times during the winter up in RI. I did NOT have the gasoline heater. My (water-cooled) Cabrio would get driven top-down with heat on quite often any time temps got above 35°. I've always been a ragtop man...

1. Apartment dwellers

2. Long haul drivers.

3. EVs use flat screens

4. Americans are famously in love with cars and the smell of gasoline.

These are true except for #4. I was behind a POS Ranger with a misfire struggling to do 5mph under the limit the other night. I don't normally drive aggressively but with 2 lanes turning into 1 in about a 1/8mi, I put the hammer down and passed on the inside so I wouldn't be behind him for the next 2-3 miles. I've never been a fan of smelling HC, CO or NOx...

...Two things: Electric bicycles and auto racing. You heard it here first.

I'm about ready for Ebikes and scooters to be reigned in because they are everywhere! Why buy a motorcycle and have to register and insure it when I can buy an Ebike and drive it down the side of the road or sidewalk. Helmet investment optional and infrequent...

Beetles sold in very cold climates had a gasoline powered heater in the trunk. I had one. It was a factory option. It ws so hot you had to turn it off after a few minutes.

(see above)

EVs are "SO GREAT," that a BIG factor in sales is that the gov't DUBIOUSLY incentivized it with tax credits. Take those credits away and what happens??? You're a smart feller, so you know. We're seeing it right now. If the product was inherently superior, it would not have to be incentivized.

One can't underestimate the value of the bribe the gov't was offering regarding sales. With the promise of an infrastructure that never materialized. The market is stabilizing as it should be in this capitalistic economy we live in...

LOL! If it wasn't for the gov't, the EV industry would have never happened. If there was any inherent value in the product, it wouldn't have to be subsidized to create sales. Thankfully those subsidies are going away. And so, EVs will remain a small niche product.... NATURALLY.

(see above)

 

[Bongo Lewi]

The whole world is buying EVs. It's ridiculous to imagine that not happening everywhere. No question the US is a tough market for the reasons I cited. And others I didn't. There is nothing on Earth that is going to stop EVs from dominating the passenger car market. And local delivery vehicles. Long haul trucks, heavy equipment... hard to say. It's all about cost of operation in that world. Money decides everything.

Anyway... Every major US carmaker CEO still says EVs are still their North Star. Every fucking one of them. They know if they don't figure this out they are cooked. They also have to deal with the reality of staying alive until they make the transition. That isnt going to be easy.

10.7 million EVs sold worldwide in 2025. That's a lot of cars.

Global EV sales hit 10.7M in 2025 – Europe surges, US stalls

Global EV sales hit 10.7 million in 2025, up 27% YTD. China leads, Europe surges, but US growth lags amid policy headwinds.

electrek.co

 

[NavyVette]

The whole world is buying EVs. It's ridiculous to imagine that not happening everywhere. No question the US is a tough market for the reasons I cited. And others I didn't. There is nothing on Earth that is going to stop EVs from dominating the passenger car market. And local delivery vehicles. Long haul trucks, heavy equipment... hard to say. It's all about cost of operation in that world. Money decides everything.

Anyway... Every major US carmaker CEO still says EVs are still their North Star. Every fucking one of them. They know if they don't figure this out they are cooked. They also have to deal with the reality of staying alive until they make the transition. That isnt going to be easy.

10.7 million EVs sold worldwide in 2025. That's a lot of cars.

Global EV sales hit 10.7M in 2025 – Europe surges, US stalls

Global EV sales hit 10.7 million in 2025, up 27% YTD. China leads, Europe surges, but US growth lags amid policy headwinds.

electrek.co

You mean where there are government mandates and governent taxes on gasoline making it so very can afford it?

It's not happening organically.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

You mean where there are government mandates and governent taxes on gasoline making it so very can afford it?

It's not happening organically.

I have no illusions about government taxing something else to make up for the loss of tax revenue from gasoline or diesel. They will simply make it up with some other tax. The logical solution will be electicity - but there's one problem with that. You home uses electric power too so your 'road taxes' are hard to Isolate. Nobody has the full answer yet but what Europe has started doing is collecting tolls for EVs in lieu of fuel tax.

Germany is a good example. Big, industrial economy. 29% of all the cars sold in Germany today are EVs. Germany places a tax on gasoline that's equivalent in US dollars to $2.62 per gallon. Diesel similar, slightly less. They are not taxing EVs. So if Hans drives a lot and buys an EV, he gives himself a raise. For now.

My guess is tolls are going to fill the void created when nobody is burning gasoline. That can be applied to all vehicles easily. Like they do in Chicago and all over the east coast. Toll roads and bridge tolls are common from Maine to Georgia. The catch is if you drive a gas burner, they nick you twice. Once for the gas and once for the road (toll). This is why the smart consumer gets an EV. I'd rather piss away money on guns and ammo than give it to the state. I honestly dont give flying fuck what kind of motor is in my car or truck. I just want to get where I m going. Driving to me is like taking a shit. It's a necessary function. Not something I get thrilled about.

 

[no4mk1t]

Most states charge EV owners a fee when you register the car. Rates vary from zero to $200 per year depending on the state. Which, when you do the math is more than what you're paying in gas tax. Plus, when you charge the car at home, your electricity is taxed. So now you get screwed two times instead of one.

 

[One Ping Only]

I didn't want to harsh Bongo's buzz too bad, but I almist mentioned the cold factor too. - it's a balmy 29 degrees here right now, and I do like not to look like Ralphies little brother in the Christmas Story movie when I drive

Ugh. We had a nice crisp 29 here last night.

 

[One Ping Only]

My point is you are an anomaly. Or soon will be. The mass market in the US is lagging but it will follow the rest of the world to EVs.

Not at all. I'm another. And I DO know HOW they work and what they are about. I'd rather fillup in 5-7 minutes than to dilly-dally around waiting for the toaster to charge up.

We don't have an oil shortage (the earth produces it), today's internal combustion engines burn insanely clean, and I want my vehicle to serve ME, not me serve it by waiting for it to charge during a trip. My prerogative. I'm not going to force someone to drive a petrol car and they are not going to force me to drive a toaster.

And I do NOT like sitting on Li-Ion battery. I'd rather take my chances with a tank of gasoline.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Oil is indeed organic but it takes a million years to cook. There’s easily enough oil in the ground to last another century. Maybe longer but it’s not infinite. We are burning it far faster than new oil is being formed. Ive admitted in the past that I really dont give a shit what happens a hundred years from now. Not my problem. I'll be long dead and forgotten.

Crude oil is essentially fermented plankton and other organic matter trapped underground by tectonic movements. Sea water. There should be plenty of new oil 100,000 centuries from now. In the year 1002026. I'm not sure it will be needed though. Humans may have sprouted wings and be able to fly by then. Or perhaps we will have transporters that can beam us to where we need to go.

I'd rather sleep on a lithium battery than a Molotov cocktail. Good thing they don't make Pinto's anymore. I heard they might make a comeback, but be named Ford Exploder.

 

[Racer88]

And I do NOT like sitting on Li-Ion battery

I've never even ridden in one, and I don't plan on ever riding in one. 100% serious. Death trap in multiple circumstances. Also a danger to the house.

 

[no4mk1t]

The risk of thermal runaway with the current battery chemistry is much lower than with the early lithium ion batteries. That plus the media highlighted EV fires in the news, but did not report ICE fires with equal enthusiasm.

With equal numbers of both EV's and ICE, here are the fire stats. This is for the currently produced types of each.

Future battery chemistries are looking like sodium based and solid state. The thermal runaway risk for those is even lower.

 

[Racer88]

That plus the media highlighted EV fires in the news, but did not report ICE fires with equal enthusiasm.

They are VERY different kinds of fires with VERY different outcomes due to the inability to extinguish Li-Ion fires. Ask a firefighter. I have. VERY different animals.

Also... it was discovered here in FL that hurricane-induced storm surge (flooding) causes EVs (if the water reaches them) to burst into flames. No bueno! Many homes burned down as a result. So when a hurricane is approaching, EV owners have to move their cars out of the garage and away from ANY structures. No bueno.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Lots of people fear plane crashes but have no problem getting in their car and driving all day. Your odds of getting killed in a car wreck are far greater. Statistically, there's a 1 in 25 chance you get killed in a car crash. Dying in a plane crash is 1 in 11 million.

Teslas burst into flames!

Actually, gas and diesel powered vehicle burn up a lot more often as No4 points out.

I think I mentioned this before:

Myself and several others were in Indonesia. We arranged to take a helicopter to a remote location. The helo shows up and I can plainly see it's a beat up old Huey, probably Vietnam War era. I didn't like what I was seeing so I recused myself and decided to rent a suitable vehicle for the shitty roads. The others stuck with the plan. Half an hour later the helo went down in the middle of nowhere. I arrived at the destination and they weren't there. Authorities said it dropped off the radar. The aircraft was reported missing, possibly crashed. Nobody was killed but they were stranded for many hours in a nasty environment. Minor injuries, but no water, getting eaten by insects, struggling thru very difficult terrain and oppressive heat and humidity to find help.

When it comes to safety, there are worse things than driving an EV.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

If my home is under water I hope it burns down. Makes the cleanup so much easier.

 

[no4mk1t]

It seems there were 17 EV fires in Florida in 2024 as a direct result of a hurricanes and flooding. It was also noted that there were 68 fires attributed to lithium ion batteries in power tools and scooters during hurricanes.
Conversely, there 110 ICE fires attributed to hurricanes in the same year. There was no mention of the exact battery chemistry of the EV fires.

The news reports EV fires out of proportion to ICE fires.
Everyone should have figured out by now that clicks and views drive the news cycle, not facts and truth.

The running joke in the Soviet Union era that the two state newspapers, named "Pravda" (News), and "Izvestia" (Truth) was that there was no news in Truth, and no truth in News. The American news media has apparently adopted this practice.

 

[no4mk1t]

If my home is under water I hope it burns down. Makes the cleanup so much easier.

And you probably don't have flood insurance, but you do have fire insurance.

 

[Racer88]

Lots of people fear plane crashes but have no problem getting in their car and driving all day. Your odds of getting killed in a car wreck are far greater. Statistically, there's a 1 in 25 chance you get killed in a car crash. Dying in a plane crash is 1 in 11 million.

Teslas burst into flames!

Actually, gas and diesel powered vehicle burn up a lot more often as No4 points out.

I think I mentioned this before:

Myself and several others were in Indonesia. We arranged to take a helicopter to a remote location. The helo shows up and I can plainly see it's a beat up old Huey, probably Vietnam War era. I didn't like what I was seeing so I recused myself and decided to rent a suitable vehicle for the shitty roads. The others stuck with the plan. Half an hour later the helo went down in the middle of nowhere. I arrived at the destination and they weren't there. Authorities said it dropped off the radar. The aircraft was reported missing, possibly crashed. Nobody was killed but they were stranded for many hours in a nasty environment. Minor injuries, but no water, getting eaten by insects, struggling thru very difficult terrain and oppressive heat and humidity to find help.

When it comes to safety, there are worse things than driving an EV.

My biggest concern with EVs is the electrically actuated door handle.... being able to get out in an emergency. Yes... I know they have emergency mechanical handles. But they're fucking HIDDEN! LOL! And the rear door emergency latches are even more hidden. Fuck. That. Shit. I don't want to be fumbling for a HIDDEN door release in an adrenaline-soaked emergency.

Hey... we all have our "line in the sand." I've engaged in MANY dangerous hobbies and activities over my years. MANY. Many that most people say, "I wouldn't do that." Skiing. Scuba diving. Auto racing. Taking a back seat ride in a Navy jet (carrier launch and recovery). Driving on I-95 in Florida! Shooting at public ranges. Crazy shit! LOL!

I'm not getting in an EV. Not even as a passenger. But I'd get right back in a Navy jet that requires ejection seat training.

 

[no4mk1t]

My biggest concern with EVs is the electrically actuated door handle.... being able to get out in an emergency. Yes... I know they have emergency mechanical handles. But they're fucking HIDDEN! LOL! And the rear door emergency latches are even more hidden. Fuck. That. Shit. I don't want to be fumbling for a HIDDEN door release in an adrenaline-soaked emergency.

Hey... we all have our "line in the sand." I've engaged in MANY dangerous hobbies and activities over my years. MANY. Many that most people say, "I wouldn't do that." Skiing. Scuba diving. Auto racing. Taking a back seat ride in a Navy jet (carrier launch and recovery). Driving on I-95 in Florida! Shooting at public ranges. Crazy shit! LOL!

I'm not getting in an EV. Not even as a passenger. But I'd get right back in a Navy jet that requires ejection seat training.

And this is one of the reasons I would not buy a Tesla. Unnecessary gadgetry where a simple mechanical door handle would serve just as well. They can make a flush mechanical door handle, GM and American Motors had them in the 60's. Not rocket science.
But all new cars are overly complex in the name of convenience. And that's great until it stops working and the tech at the dealership is unable to fix it. (Not talking about you @NavyVet83)

 

[Racer88]

And this is one of the reasons I would not buy a Tesla. Unnecessary gadgetry where a simple mechanical door handle would serve just as well. They can make a flush mechanical door handle, GM and American Motors had them in the 60's. Not rocket science.
But all new cars are overly complex in the name of convenience. And that's great until it stops working and the tech at the dealership is unable to fix it. (Not talking about you @NavyVet83)

That, alone, is a deal-breaker for me. Even if it was electric doors on an ICE car.... deal-breaker. Major safety issue, in my book.

 

[Racer88]

$6 BILLION loss.... just ONE company. No. Bueno!

https://www.autoblog.com/news/gm-announces-6-billion-usd-loss-on-electric-vehicles

 

[no4mk1t]

How to make Greta's eye twitch.
Do a burnout for Greta!