looks like some legit sites selling P80 frames again

[Bongo Lewi]

I'm not sure if you participate in any other forums about 80% firearms, but it's obvious to me from the groups I am a member of, that building a functional 80% is just a little more advanced than a monkey is capable of achieving. I know that you and the left like to make it out as simple as something a befuddled old man/monkey in his 80s can do in a matter of minutes, but it's been my experience that most people who buy into that theory and attempt the process fail to understand why their frame with the oblong holes and pounded in pins won't go bang.

Some actually succeed in making it go bang, but then can't understand why it acts as a single shot rather than the rapid fire gat they've been led to believe could be theirs with a couple Benjamins and a few minutes work.
I will concede that your experience as an engineer may make it seem something a monkey could do, but not everyone is endowed with your magnificent skills.

If you mean Reddit I found it to be like a barrel of monkeys.

We will just have to disagree on what defines a monkey. Not just in putting parts together. Recently a variation of stupid human tricks involving firearms has become a form of online entertainment. I have a hunch there is some overlap of these groups in monkeydom and the humans featured are actually simians.

If you read the tea leaves, the Supreme Court has already decided that regulators can make the decision on what boils down to constructive intent with firearm related parts. Also left the door open to regulators mandating serial numbers on frames. The idea that someone can do whatever they want when it comes to firearms without restrictions ended with the NFA in 1934 and was reinforced by the GCA decades later in 1968. Passed by lawmakers not regulators. Gun owners express many objections to those rules and even more vitriol about the regulators who enforce it. I am one of them. Some of those complaints and objections by gun owners are legit, others are just plain delusional and only make sense if you are an ape - who are bigger and stronger but only slightly smarter than monkeys.

The thing about monkeys (and apes) is they refuse to point any criticism to their own kind for inspiring the regulations that those who walk erect have to live with. They arent smart enough to know that's self-defeating. Because they are monkeys.

 

[Racer88]

"Build Parties" quickly became no bueno even BEFORE Bidet was elected. The ATF determined that the "purchaser" of the GG, or drillpress/jig, etc. had become an unlicensed "manufacturer" even if others were doing their own work on their own guns with the equipment. The wanton sharing of resources turned it into a "business" and therefore regulated. Having a few trusted buddies over, having a couple beers and letting them use your mill is one thing. But technically, they would all have to do their OWN programming.

My understanding was that you couldn't even lend any tool... not a Dremel... not an exacto knife... nothing. You had to use your own tools, and the "instructor" cannot touch your project.

 

[Racer88]

I'm not sure if you participate in any other forums about 80% firearms, but it's obvious to me from the groups I am a member of, that building a functional 80% is just a little more advanced than a monkey is capable of achieving. I know that you and the left like to make it out as simple as something a befuddled old man/monkey in his 80s can do in a matter of minutes, but it's been my experience that most people who buy into that theory and attempt the process fail to understand why their frame with the oblong holes and pounded in pins won't go bang.

Some actually succeed in making it go bang, but then can't understand why it acts as a single shot rather than the rapid fire gat they've been led to believe could be theirs with a couple Benjamins and a few minutes work.
I will concede that your experience as an engineer may make it seem something a monkey could do, but not everyone is endowed with your magnificent skills.

100% agree. My observations on other forums is that the MAJORITY don't know how to even turn a screwdriver. Dead-serious. People like us... who have grown up making our own slingshots, fixing our own bikes, and working on our own cars.... are dinosaurs. Admittedly, my own kids have never picked up a screwdriver.

It's SO bad out there (regarding building 80% guns) that the other gun forum members get VERY annoyed, because 99% of the posts about builds are about problems.

So, just as the media and politicians have the mistaken idea that it's "EASY" and can be done in 20 minutes.... the "People of the Gun" on other forums scoff, convinced that such home-built guns are nothing more than expensive paperweights, rife with malfunctions and problems. Both groups are wrong.

Speaking as one who has built several RELIABLE 80% guns, including my very first... I'll admit that it's not "rocket surgery." It's not particularly "difficult." HOWEVER, it takes way more than 20 minutes, AND it takes meticulous attention to detail.... Again, IF you want a gun that actually works better than a single shot. And then if you want it to work for 1000s of rounds, attention to detail is even more critical. Most people today do not have such skills. And they definitely don't have the patience.

 

[Racer88]

The thing about monkeys (and apes) is they refuse to point any criticism to their own kind for inspiring the regulations that those who walk erect have to live with.

Both the monkeys AND the Fudds have done that. Even some in the build community who boast about how easy and cheap it is to build a gun. Fuddkeys?

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Both the monkeys AND the Fudds have done that. Even some in the build community who boast about how easy and cheap it is to build a gun. Fuddkeys?

True. And unfortunately, they are both proud of their stupidity.

I am embracing the term fuddkey.

 

[brian]

"Build Parties" quickly became no bueno even BEFORE Bidet was elected. The ATF determined that the "purchaser" of the GG, or drillpress/jig, etc. had become an unlicensed "manufacturer" even if others were doing their own work on their own guns with the equipment. The wanton sharing of resources turned it into a "business" and therefore regulated. Having a few trusted buddies over, having a couple beers and letting them use your mill is one thing. But technically, they would all have to do their OWN programming.

Thanks for pointing that out, I had not researched it much. Interesting question on the "But technically, they would all have to do their OWN programming". My understanding is that GG is providing the models (GCode, whatever) that you are running through the machine much like a model for a 3D printer - i.e. you are not programming anything. Would that imply that pulling down a design and either running it through a mill or even 3D printing it is a violation or is owning the machine really what helps the argument that you made it as a PMF?

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Thanks for pointing that out, I had not researched it much. Interesting question on the "But technically, they would all have to do their OWN programming". My understanding is that GG is providing the models (GCode, whatever) that you are running through the machine much like a model for a 3D printer - i.e. you are not programming anything. Would that imply that pulling down a design and either running it through a mill or even 3D printing it is a violation or is owning the machine really what helps the argument that you made it as a PMF?

I think the law in this regard is largely untested.

You could probably do it and nobody would care unless for some reason there was an investigation. A crime committed with one of the guns and it becomes revealed where it came from. Or a theft of the gun. Perhaps one of the participants has a big mouth, drinks a few beers and brags about making guns at the local watering hole. Then somebody who doesnt like that guy rats him out to law enforcement. An angry ex wife or girlfriend perhaps.

My rule of thumb is if you wonder if something might not be legal, it probably isn't.

A safer legal approach would be to buy the machine. Make what you want for yourself. Then sell the machine. No problem. Once you start making guns for others or allowing them to use the GG machine you own it may lead to some kind of legal issue. Whoever owns the machine is cast in the role of manufacturing firearms if it is used to make a gun for someone else. It's a fine line. But a gun hating sheriff and DA might try to make a case. Not worth the risk in my book.

 

[brian]

Make what you want for yourself. Then sell the machin

I thought about that angle as well. I'd keep the machine as it'd be fun to do things with. As these various parts companies go offline (80P Builder is the latest I have seen) even getting slides could become more difficult. Being able to cut my own or even put an RMR cut on a slide I have would be a nice option to have.

 

[James Moore]

If you mean Reddit I found it to be like a barrel of monkeys.

Finally, something we agree on.
No, I don't mean reddit.

 

[James Moore]

The thing about monkeys (and apes) is they refuse to point any criticism to their own kind for inspiring the regulations that those who walk erect have to live with.

Yes, most of us here are aware that you believe that those of us who can read and understand the words "Shall not be infringed", are the problem and if we'd just sit down and STFU, while you and your ilk interpret the Constitution whichever ever makes you feel good, everything would be just fine.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Yes, most of us here are aware that you believe that those of us who can read and understand the words "Shall not be infringed", are the problem and if we'd just sit down and STFU, while you and your ilk interpret the Constitution whichever ever makes you feel good, everything would be just fine.

Trying to read minds and always getting it wrong. Blindly supporting those who cause the rules to become ever stricter. Get used to losing. The only possible outcome for that line of thinking.

 

[Racer88]

Trying to read minds and always getting it wrong. Blindly supporting those who cause the rules to become ever stricter. Get used to losing. The only possible outcome for that line of thinking.

But it seems you're justifying onerous laws and rules imposed on the undeserving because of the morons. You may defer to the simplistic, "Well, that's just the way it is..." But some of us refuse to surrender so easily. We refuse to accept that. To wit....

“So long as people will submit to arbitrary measures, so long will they find masters… more than a prevailing opinion that it is better to tamely submit than nobly assert and vindicate our privileges.” - James Otis Jr. (an American lawyer, political activist, colonial legislator, and early supporter of patriotic causes in Massachusetts Bay Colony at the beginning of the Revolutionary Era)

"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the law abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless." -Lysander Spooner (January 19, 1808 – May 14, 1887) was an American individualist anarchist, abolitionist, entrepreneur, lawyer, essayist, legal theorist, pamphletist, political philosopher, Unitarian and writer.

 

[Bobster]

 

[Bongo Lewi]

It fascinates me to no end that there are some who believe the Constitution should not be fashionably interpreted as I do, yet they have no grasp of how politics and government actually work. Right philosphy, wrong tactics.

When the only tool in the toolbox is a sledgehammer, the results are predictable.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

View attachment 31092

You beat me to it.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

But it seems you're justifying onerous laws and rules imposed on the undeserving because of the morons. You may defer to the simplistic, "Well, that's just the way it is..." But some of us refuse to surrender so easily. We refuse to accept that. To wit....

Not exactly. I'm saying tolerance for morons is why the laws keep getting more intrusive. Best example... small minded morons thinking they are sending a message about individual freedoms by going into a McDonalds carrying rifles.

Or this guy

And this guy..

A vast number of law abiding gun owners refuse to admonish these assholes and others like them because it might appear that they are caving on gun control.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

When I was a kid , if some lunatic went into a local business brandishing a weapon just because he could, the local business owners, cops, and men in town would have kicked his ass. Brutally. This behavior is not freedom or in the spirit of the right to bear arms. I believe firmly that if responsible gun owners refused to tolerate jackasses with guns, it would have a profound effect on public opinion and take some of the wind out of the sails of gun control advocates.

When you sleep with dogs you get fleas.

 

[Racer88]

I'm saying tolerance for morons is why the laws keep getting more intrusive.

Who's tolerating them? Define "tolerate." And then specify what we should do instead.

Best example... small minded morons thinking they are sending a message about individual freedoms by going into a McDonalds carrying rifles.

Morons be morons. Why should WE be punished? Why are you justifying OUR punishment? Or should I say.... Why are you TOLERATING it?

A vast number of law abiding gun owners refuse to admonish these assholes and others like them because it might appear that they are caving on gun control.

Admonish? That's not a legal or authoritative action. We can scoff at them. We can snub our noses. We can even curse them. But that carries no legal weight.

I believe firmly that if responsible gun owners refused to tolerate jackasses with guns, it would have a profound effect on public opinion and take some of the wind out of the sails of gun control advocates.

Again... please define "tolerate," and then define which actions WE should take against the "Fuddkeys." What could WE do to address the idiots that would appease the anti-Freedom faction?? I find it ASTONISHING that someone of your intellect actually believes that appeasement will lessen their appetite for CONTROL. At least that's what it seems you are suggesting.

There is only ONE way (well maybe two ways) to deal with gun control advocates and tyrants (one and the same).... Fight them on a legal / Constitutional basis... or simply refuse to comply.

I believe people have a right to be morons. They are not my problem... until they mess with me or my family directly. People have a right to be stupid and then suffer the consequences. What I refuse to "tolerate" is to be punished for the actions of OTHERS.

You seem to accept that premise of punishing the masses for the actions of a few... because "that's how politics work." I disagree 1000%. Just as I refused to comply with the covid shutdowns (and nothing happened to me, as expected). I was among the VERY few who stood up to the unconstitutional covid shutdowns. I've said it before... the consequences of the shutdowns are NOT the fault of the gov't. They are 100% the fault of my fellow Americans who are WEAK.

I don't give a FUCK about how "things are" or how "things work" when it comes to my Freedom and Rights. When it comes to that, I am NOT willing to "go along to get along." If we're talking about benign things, I can work and compromise. But my Freedom is binary. It is not up for negotiation or compromise.

Your mileage may vary. So far, my way is working quite well for me. This isn't a game, and I refuse to play on THEIR terms.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

You seem to accept that premise of punishing the masses for the actions of a few... because "that's how politics work."

Nope. You have my point of view slightly wroing. The masses are punished because of the actions of a few - who are perceived by politicians and a lot of voters as all gun owners. This perception all gun owners are nut jobs is reinforced when someone says, As long as miscreants dont affect me or my family, who cares...? Imagine how that comes across to people who are average citizens who have no interest or bias toward firearms. They hear, Fuck you. You are on your own. Go buy a gun. Their answer is: No... fuck you. I'm voting for gun control. That is the reality of politics.

Both sides have it wrong.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." The good are not assholes with no respect for the law or they foolishly wish for anarchy. No governance at all. I've seen how that works up- close and personal in North Africa.

A raging lunatic or felon who can covertly assemble a gun without anything impeding him will only fuel more draconian gun laws. Someone who makes a gun for the sole purpose of hiding it is not a hobbyist. Yet the hobbyist suffers the regulation and stigma of people with bad intentions. Or nuts who imagine themselves as revolutionaries.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I thought about that angle as well. I'd keep the machine as it'd be fun to do things with. As these various parts companies go offline (80P Builder is the latest I have seen) even getting slides could become more difficult. Being able to cut my own or even put an RMR cut on a slide I have would be a nice option to have.

My opinion is the GG is a true hobbyist/enthusiast tool. The things you can do with it now are fairly sophisticated. How many plastic frames do you want to carve after having done two - or twenty. The hobbyist/enthusiast community is not on anybody's radar.

I'm sorry no one agrees but mass market unserialized gun frames and gun kits are headed toward extinction. The best and more interesting alternative is truly making your own guns. I've been skeptical about 3D printing being far enough along to be viable. The frames arent strong enough. I read yesterday that the GG can now mill a complete AR lower from a block of metal. It can still mill 80% lowers and blank 1911s, which is little more than an L shaped block of metal. No monkeys will buy this machine.