Optics on carry pistols??

Many of us here are "men and women of a certain age." Those who aren't... aren't far behind us! Read on!

MRDS (micro red dot sights) have been gaining in popularity. Yet, some of us cling to the old school, proven, low-tech ways. I totally get it. Part of the fundamentals of marksmanship is the use of iron sights... learning sight alignment and sight picture. I still think it's VERY important. And I will never give up iron sights entirely.

HOWEVER....

There are some significant advantages for pistol-mounted reflex sights.
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First... those of us whose eyes have aged and need "readers" (aka presbyopia), have noticed that we can't focus on that front iron sight very well. I have resorted to getting some "top focal" eye pro, which have a "bifocal" magnifying lens at the TOP of the lens on my dominant eye. I change the lens on the left side to a "bottom focal." That helps with any administrative firearms handling at the range bench.
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And, it works a CHARM! At the range. I highly recommend them. But, what about out in the "wild?" I wont' be wearing my top focal glasses, eh?

"Dot" optics don't require corrective lenses. In fact, they go blurry with readers.

Here's the other BIG advantage: "Dog forbid" you're ever forced to defend yourself "in the wild," the MRDS allows for a "threat-focused" sight picture. Both eyes open. Focused on the target. Super easy and very intuitive. Just superimpose the dot over the target.

Consider the time it takes to shift your point of focus from the target / threat to your front sight, even if you have "good eyes." With a "red / green dot," there's no shifting. You focus on the threat and STAY focused on the threat.

Caveat: I am also trained in "point" or "instinctive" shooting. At close distances, I won't likely be using sights at all. But, that's ANOTHER whole discussion, mmm-kay?

The only "trick" of the whole thing with MRDSes is getting used to "finding the dot."

Ah... but, here's another thing: You don't want to "find the dot." That's right. If you have to look for it, precious fractions of a second are ticking away in a SHTF moment. No bueno!

The KEY is to present the gun consistently such that the dot finds you. It's just there. Every time. You bring the gun up, and there's the dot. You learned how to do it with iron sights. You can learn how to do it with an MRDS.

This takes some practice. But, I promise you will get there, and it will happen faster than you think.

That said... Holosun has come out with a new reticle callled "Vulcan ACSS." It's pretty slick. It projects a LARGE outer ring that isn't there if the "dot" is in the center of the field of view. But, if you're "off," the edge of the circle shows up in the sight window and tells you which way you need to correct the orientation.
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I've got one of these new Holosun sights (with green reticle) on the way for my new P80 "EDC" build. You'll notice that it has a chevron rather than a dot. We'll see how I like that!

I've got two other MRDSes in my "stable." I mounted the "gold standard" Trijicon RMR (RM07) on my home defense FNP-45T years ago. It has a 6.5-MOA dot.
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More recently, I put one on my first P80 build, a G34 clone intended as a range toy. This is the Holosun HE507C-GR X2. It has a 2-MOA GREEN dot. I like the green color better, I think.
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But, this will be the first time I put one on a carry piece. This Polymer80 PFC9 G19-clone:
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As my eyes have changed, I am experiencing a newfound appreciation for MRDS optics. But, I also appreciate the ability to stay threat-focused even as I transition from instinctive to sighted fire.
 
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I like the ACSS idea, didn't realize Holosun was doing that. So this gives you "just" the chevron, no dot in (optional) largish circle like the 510C? I rather like the circle for a very quick sight picture if needed, or focus on the dot for more precision.
 
So this gives you "just" the chevron, no dot in (optional) largish circle like the 510C? I rather like the circle for a very quick sight picture if needed, or focus on the dot for more precision.

Correct. Just the chevron in the middle of the window. The large circle is not visible once the chevron is centered. There is no smaller "donut of death" option around the chevron like you have with the traditional center dot.

For "precision shots," you use the very point of the chevron. Some shooters report that they like using the point even better than a dot, which depending on its size, can obscure a precise target.

I'm headed to the range to test it this morning. I'll let you know how I like the chevron vs the dot. But from dry fire at home, I think I'm going to like it a lot.
 
Correct. Just the chevron in the middle of the window. The large circle is not visible once the chevron is centered. There is no smaller "donut of death" option around the chevron like you have with the traditional center dot.

For "precision shots," you use the very point of the chevron. Some shooters report that they like using the point even better than a dot, which depending on its size, can obscure a precise target.

I'm headed to the range to test it this morning. I'll let you know how I like the chevron vs the dot. But from dry fire at home, I think I'm going to like it a lot.
Looking forward to your review. I've been looking at Primary Arms ACSS scopes for another application and they have the chevron reticle which seems to be pretty well reviewed.

Are you liking the green LED? I don't believe I've ever even looked through a non-red version.
 
Looking forward to your review. I've been looking at Primary Arms ACSS scopes for another application and they have the chevron reticle which seems to be pretty well reviewed.
I have a PA 5X ACSS prism scope on my SCAR-16S. I like it quite a bit. Though I wish the chevron was a bit bigger on that one. I find the chevron size on this pistol optic to be perfect.

Are you liking the green LED? I don't believe I've ever even looked through a non-red version.
Yes. I think I like green better. I got the green 507C in regular "dot" configuration on my first P80 / G34 build. The RMR on my FNP-45T is red.
 
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I might actually try that sight. Ive always trained to point shoot, but my eyes are crap and Ill probably never be able to use iron sighta again.
 
One thing I noticed: With a MRDS, it's easier to "call your shots." In other words, I KNEW when I flinched as soon as the shot broke. It's easier to see the flinch or the effects of a grip or trigger press issues with the MRDS.

To wit... two BIG flinches here:
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It is good that you are experienced, self-aware and humble enough to recognize when you have bad technique.

For those of us who are less, ahem, self-aware there is this device:


It helped me recognize that I am a trigger slapper. 👏
 
Alrighty... Here we go. I dialed in the optic at the 25 yard range, using a bench rest. Don't have those target images processed, yet. And really no need to post them.

Then I moved to the 10-yard range. Here are 3 off-hand targets from the 10 yard range:
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I'm fairly pleased. It is amazing how the "aim small / hit small" aphorism is true! The smaller bullseye (stick-on targets) shrunk my groups!

PS: Here's a good article I found online:
 
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I just got back from another range trip. I shot only one gun... my new PFC9 that will now be my "EDC." One of two, actually. I also carry a S&W 642 Airweight, depending on what I'm wearing.

I am becoming more and more comfortable with the MRDS optic on a pistol. I'm really liking it! Very happy with the Holosun 507C with the ACSS Vulcan reticle.

Today I did some combination defensive shooting at a silhouette target... transitioning from point / instinctive rapid-fire shooting (COM) to sighted head shots with the optic. If you look closely.... For fun, I tried to take a single precision shot at each "gun."
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I think I'm "sold" on pistol optics. I also REALLY like that I don't have the disadvantage of my eyes not being able to focus on a front iron sight when going to sights for longer or precision shots.

So... WITHOUT sights and WITH sights... it was all "threat focused." Interesting stuff! I need to keep practicing both and transitioning between them.
 
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An unexpected benefit of the reflex optic on my pistol... I can "call my shots" much better. I can SEE the dip / flinch / push right before or as the shot breaks.
 
darth vader GIF


Come Join Me on the Dark Side of roland special EDC. You are sooo close... :LOL:

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Trying to tamp the snappiness of 43x I end up with my version of Roland Special :giggle:
 
Here's a pretty good video soliloquy on pistol red dots by Ken Hackathorn.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjlL0hYgdag

Overall, he makes some good points. If you're an objective person, you have to realize that there is no such thing as a "panacea." For ANY endeavor... including pistol marksmanship.

So, like ANYTHING, reflex sights on pistols have their pros and cons. The adoption of anything involves trade-offs.

I did post a comment regarding his assertion at the 5:00 point that if you've fired 100,000 rounds with irons, it will take at least 100,001 rounds with a red dot to acclimate. That's simply not true and an oversimplification of physiology and kinesiology.

But the rest of what he said is objectively true. Nevertheless... Perhaps I'm one of those "1%." And I agree with what he is effectively saying, which is: No gizmo will make up for a deficit in the fundamentals department.

But, I totally agree with Ken as it pertains to the "average" gun owner who has a defensive pistol in the safe at home and goes to the range twice a year. An optic is probably a BAD idea for that person.
 
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Getting better and better with the optic through repetition / practice (both dry and live fire).

Some targets from today. Distance was 10 yards.

This was my first target. Slow fire.
The center group was my first group of the day with that low-left flyer as my first shot.
Best group was the bottom bullseye. 8 / 10 rounds in one hole!
The right group was pretty good, too. 10 out of 15 rounds in one hole.
Target-1.jpg


Then I did some "press fire" drills. Go from compressed ready to extended and fire 1 round as soon as target is acquired. Rinse and repeat. I was pretty happy with this group of 50 shots, with the majority of them in a fist-sized group. Though, still a bit of pushing the shots low. I'll keep working at it!
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I like that chevron reticle/dot. Very nice. FWIW, with my G19 clone, we have suppressor height iron tritium sights, and a Burris FastFire 3. The red dot of the Burris lands squarely in the notch of the rear irons and directly over the front iron dot. I haven't been out to the range with it yet, but do not expect any problems regarding acquisition or accuracy. TWT.
 
Here's a pretty good video soliloquy on pistol red dots by Ken Hackathorn.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjlL0hYgdag

Overall, he makes some good points. If you're an objective person, you have to realize that there is no such thing as a "panacea." For ANY endeavor... including pistol marksmanship.

So, like ANYTHING, reflex sights on pistols have their pros and cons. The adoption of anything involves trade-offs.

I did post a comment regarding his assertion at the 5:00 point that if you've fired 100,000 rounds with irons, it will take at least 100,001 rounds with a red dot to acclimate. That's simply not true and an oversimplification of physiology and kinesiology.

But the rest of what he said is objectively true. Nevertheless... Perhaps I'm one of those "1%." And I agree with what he is effectively saying, which is: No gizmo will make up for a deficit in the fundamentals department.

But, I totally agree with Ken as it pertains to the "average" gun owner who has a defensive pistol in the safe at home and goes to the range twice a year. An optic is probably a BAD idea for that person.

In a bit of a contrast to Hackathorn, here is Mas Ayoob, posted 2 weeks ago (just found this today):


View: https://youtu.be/apILD12giac
 
Holosun has that nifty "EPS CARRY MRS" now.....so nice to have a low-rider RDS that you can also use your normal iron sights with because it sits low. The only caveat is it uses the Holosun K mount....but I think the market will adapt to it. If you use an RMR adapter plate you more or less cancel-out the advantage the EDS CARRY gives you. Planning on one of these new critters for the next 19 slide build.
 
Holosun has that nifty "EPS CARRY MRS" now.....so nice to have a low-rider RDS that you can also use your normal iron sights with because it sits low. The only caveat is it uses the Holosun K mount....but I think the market will adapt to it. If you use an RMR adapter plate you more or less cancel-out the advantage the EDS CARRY gives you. Planning on one of these new critters for the next 19 slide build.

Yeah... why are they using a different mounting footprint for that one, instead of the "standard" Trijicon RMR footprint like they did with their other optic models (407, 507, etc)???

I would be interested in an enclosed emitter from Holosun, but not if I have to use an adapter plate.
 
Yeah... why are they using a different mounting footprint for that one, instead of the "standard" Trijicon RMR footprint like they did with their other optic models (407, 507, etc)???

I would be interested in an enclosed emitter from Holosun, but not if I have to use an adapter plate.
It's the same mount as the 407k/507k that they already have. It's about 1mm shorter than the other mounts as I understand it. I'm sure it's part of the overall form factor (size reduction) that is their goal for a CC RDS. I'm game.
 
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It's the same mount as the 407k/507k that they already have. It's about 1mm shorter than the other mounts as I understand it.

My 507 optics do not need an adapter. They mount directly to an RMR footprint milled slide.
 
It's the same mount as the 407k/507k that they already have. It's about 1mm shorter than the other mounts as I understand it.
My 507 optics do not need an adapter. They mount directly to an RMR footprint milled slide.
Not yours, but the 407k/507k is indeed different than yours according to holosun. They have a few different variants. Yours is likely the 507c
 
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