Sig P320 "Uncommanded Discharges" (Merged Threads)

if i recall we had post on this subject this year.
and my understanding the issue was with some magazines not having over insertion protection, possibly causing with time "damage" to the ejector and causing this "malfunction".

Sig of Sig Haters

If you use aftermarket or modified mags and jam them in like you are auditioning for John Wick 5, then you may bend the ejector. I am reminded of those who buy a brand new car, motorcycle, or lawn tractor and 'make it better' then bitch when it doesnt run reliably. I have been shooting Sig...
www.patriotgunbuilders.com www.patriotgunbuilders.com
 
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Bongo Lewi said:
One interesting aspect of this Sig controversy is you never hear about an investigation of the holster.
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I haven't read it, but here is the redacted MSP report...
 

Attachments

I don't see any way out of this for Sig. At this point it doesn't even matter whether the pistol design is truly flawed and dangerous. It's over for the M18 / P320. Sig needs to now figure out how to recall ALL of these pistols and shitcan the design entirely.

www.defensenews.com

Air Force suspends use of M18 pistols after airman’s death

A leaked memo called for the M18 to be pulled from use “for all operational and training activities” immediately and replaced by the M-4 rifle.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
 
The unverified story I heard was the airman removed the gun, belt, and holster and set it down on a table or counter. In doing so, it discharged and the round hit him in the chest. That seems odd to me since when I remove a gun in a holster and set it down, the muzzle naturally points away from me. Maybe that just my habit.

Hard to predict what the DoD/Pentagon is going to do. It's possible they could switch to another sidearm.
 
Racer88 said:
I don't see any way out of this for Sig. At this point it doesn't even matter whether the pistol design is truly flawed and dangerous. It's over for the M18 / P320. Sig needs to now figure out how to recall ALL of these pistols and shitcan the design entirely.

www.defensenews.com

Air Force suspends use of M18 pistols after airman’s death

A leaked memo called for the M18 to be pulled from use “for all operational and training activities” immediately and replaced by the M-4 rifle.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
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From the article:

However, the P320 has led to numerous lawsuits and was removed from use by a series of law enforcement agencies and police departments, including the Dallas Police Department, the Milwaukee Police Department and Philadelphia transit police.
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The Washington State Criminal Justice Training Commission, responsible for training law enforcement officers statewide, has gone so far as to place a ban on the P320 from its facilities.
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Most recently, the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) moved to drop Sig Sauer P320 pistols in favor of swiftly replacing them with GLOCK 19 MOS. An ICE memo dated July 9 stated that “all models of the SIG Sauer P320” were now off limits for ICE agents. It called for the purchase of replacement sidearms “as soon as is practicable.”
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Bongo Lewi said:
That seems odd to me since when I remove a gun in a holster and set it down, the muzzle naturally points away from me. Maybe that just my habit.
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Same here. But if the gun fires when set down in a holster, there's a problem with either the gun or the holster.

Bongo Lewi said:
Hard to predict what the DoD/Pentagon is going to do. It's possible they could switch to another sidearm.
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I don't think they have much choice at this point. As I said... it doesn't even matter whether the gun is inherently flawed or not at this point. The negative momentum is too great, IMO. Potential liability is too high.
 
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Racer88 said:
From the article:








Same here. But if the gun fires when set down in a holster, there's a problem with either the gun or the holster.


I don't think they have much choice at this point. As I said... it doesn't even matter whether the gun is inherently flawed or not at this point. The negative momentum is too great, IMO.
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Probably true. There may suddenly be a lot of Sig pistols on the used market. Or... if the decision declares them unsafe, the government may require they be destroyed vs sold.
 
If ranges all ban them... you wont be able to give them away.

Beretta, S&W, and Glock are drooling right now. Another shot at a 20-year government contract.
 
This video went viral yesterday.

In a nutshell, he discovered that with just 1-mm of trigger pressure, if the slide is jostled, the Sig 320 will fire. That could conceivably happen in a holster, eh? To me it suggests that the sear engagement must be very little / small.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPk

I say "it's over" for the Sig 320. Furthermore, it does not bode well for future sales and the company, in general.
@BeerHunter
 
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Racer88 said:
This video went viral yesterday.

In a nutshell, he discovered that with just 1-mm of trigger pressure, if the slide is jostled, the Sig 320 will fire. That could conceivably happen in a holster, eh? To me it suggests that the sear engagement must be very little / small.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPk

I say "it's over" for the Sig 320. Furthermore, it does not bode well for future sales and the company, in general.
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I just finished watching the whole video. It's done very well.

My theory:

So, perhaps the holsters are putting just enough pressure on the trigger (less than a millimeter!)... and then when the slide is jostled... BANG.

So, based on what I know about this stuff from building Glock clones.... The sear engagement must be very poor to begin with. One of the many tests we builders do is to confirm adequate (at least 3/4) sear engagement. Furthermore, besides drop testing, we jiggle the slide every which way we can... all while observing the sear engagement through an armorer's slide rear plate cover.

No bueno for Sig. NO BUENO.
 
How is pressure applied to the trigger in a holster? It's well inside the trigger guard. Nothing in the holster should be touching the trigger. It's one of the primary reasons for a holster: To protect the trigger.

Jamming a screw in the trigger? Invalid test. This would get dismissed by an expert immediately. Certainly in a courtroom. That's no bueno.

The question is... what caused the deflection of the trigger?

Another obvious fact... used gun. Also not an M18 or M17.

I agree this may be a swan song for Sig USA, but mostly due to hysteria. There are literally hundreds of thousands of M18/M17 guns deployed. Why aren't they all failing like this guys used P320? In the hands of military personnel, many of whom have very little training with handguns. Also cops with zero gun skills.

In the end, it may be about the gun not being dummy-proof enough.

I'm going to try this on an M18 and M17. Anybody want to place any bets it doesnt happen?
 
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Bongo Lewi said:
How is pressure applied to the trigger in a holster? It's well inside the trigger guard. Nothing in the holster should be touching the trigger. It's one of the primary reasons for a holster: To protect the trigger.
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If the trigger pocket in a kydex shell is slightly constricted, I definitely see how it could apply some pressure to the trigger without tripping the trigger completely. EASILY. If the holster is full of lint, it would be even easier.

The bottom line is that a slight pressure on the trigger in combination of the slide being nudged or jostled should NOT result in a discharge. In ANY gun.

Not coincidentally, part of the safety testing protocol for our P80 builds includes making sure there is more than adequate sear engagement, AND we also manipulate the slide (wiggle, push, pull) to make sure that the sear remains engaged no matter how vigorously we do it. Then on top of that, we DROP the pistol multiple times in every orientation. All of that with an armorer's slide cover plate so we can observe the sear directly.

I suspect two problems with the Sig... The first is inadequate sear engagement. Secondly, a firing pin safety that doesn't work.

Bongo Lewi said:
Jamming a screw in the trigger? Invalid test. This would get dismissed by an expert immediately. Certainly in a courtroom. That's no bueno.
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It was a McGyver way of exerting a steady pressure on the trigger without using his finger, which would be invalidated due to the inability to keep that constant. Another way to do it would be with something like a zip-tie to hold the steady pressure on the very beginning of engagement.

There IS a huge problem with this gun, and it was very effectively demonstrated. Personally, I would NOT trust this firearm. And for that matter, because Sig refuses to address it (and has dismissed it as "impossible" despite injuries and now death)... I wouldn't touch ANY Sig gun.
 
The test is bullshit. One gun. Not even the gun in question. Questionable wear and possibly damaged at some point. Case dismissed.

This guy is some YouTube reviewer working in his shed in Wyoming. Clickbait. How does anyone know this guy didnt fuck with the gun to make it fail? Why would he? Because he makes money on clicks.

If there's something wrong with the design, then the testing needs to be done in a lab with randomly selected guns - both new and used - and performed by gun experts who are trained in forensics. Then let the evidence speak for itself. On the most tested handgun in the history of firearms.

That's exactly what's been done so far in the court cases and why the plaintiffs have repeatedly failed to prove the gun is defective. Sig has settled in a couple of cases because it's cheaper and the people who get paid are obligated to STFU. This is what lawyers do.
 
Bongo Lewi said:
The test is bullshit. One gun. Not even the gun in question. Questionable wear and possibly damaged at some point. Case dismissed.

This guy is some YouTube reviewer working in his shed in Wyoming. Clickbait. How does anyone know this guy didnt fuck with the gun to make it fail? Why would he? Because he makes money on clicks.

If there's something wrong with the design, then the testing needs to be done in a lab with randomly selected guns - both new and used - and performed by gun experts who are trained in forensics. Then let the evidence speak for itself. On the most tested handgun in the history of firearms.

That's exactly what's been done so far in the court cases and why the plaintiffs have repeatedly failed to prove the gun is defective. Sig has settled in a couple of cases because it's cheaper and the people who get paid are obligated to STFU. This is what lawyers do.
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It's not a Sig p320??

I do agree that the same test should be repeated in a more controlled environment. We need the old crew on the original Myth Busters! :)

But the test should not be dismissed. He doesn't likely have the wherewithal to conduct on multiple examples in a lab environment. But you know who DOES?? Actually a lot of agencies and also.... SIG! But Sig won't do it.

Sig is finished in the USA. Not so much because of this issue... but because of their response to it.

Knowing even what I know (as a result of my building experience).... that shit shouldn't happen with ANY gun. Something is wrong. Where there's smoke, there's often fire. While this guy's test may seem "unscientific" or "MacGyvered," it effectively demonstrates a serious problem. But yes... a big part of Science is independent repetition of the experiment.

As I said before... we do the SAME tests on our own builds to make sure the firing pin won't trip under vigorous manipulation of the parts including drop testing and wiggling the slide and pressing and pulling on it.
 
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Racer88 said:
If the trigger pocket in a kydex shell is slightly constricted, I definitely see how it could apply some pressure to the trigger without tripping the trigger completely. EASILY. If the holster is full of lint, it would be even easier.

The bottom line is that a slight pressure on the trigger in combination of the slide being nudged or jostled should NOT result in a discharge. In ANY gun.

Not coincidentally, part of the safety testing protocol for our P80 builds includes making sure there is more than adequate sear engagement, AND we also manipulate the slide (wiggle, push, pull) to make sure that the sear remains engaged no matter how vigorously we do it. Then on top of that, we DROP the pistol multiple times in every orientation. All of that with an armorer's slide cover plate so we can observe the sear directly.

I suspect two problems with the Sig... The first is inadequate sear engagement. Secondly, a firing pin safety that doesn't work.



It was a McGyver way of exerting a steady pressure on the trigger without using his finger, which would be invalidated due to the inability to keep that constant. Another way to do it would be with something like a zip-tie to hold the steady pressure on the very beginning of engagement.

There IS a huge problem with this gun, and it was very effectively demonstrated. Personally, I would NOT trust this firearm. And for that matter, because Sig refuses to address it (and has dismissed it as "impossible" despite injuries and now death)... I wouldn't touch ANY Sig gun.
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Very effectively demonstrated by a guy with zero qualifications in an uncontrolled test environment using a used P320 which was owned by someone else before him and it was not examined independently by anyone.

Case dismissed. Again.
 
Bongo Lewi said:
Very effectively demonstrated by a guy with zero qualifications in an uncontrolled test environment using a used P320 which was owned by someone else before him and it was not examined independently by anyone.

Case dismissed. Again.
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So, get someone "qualified" to repeat the test! Holy shit.

Listen.. My entire life, education, and career are based on Science. And no... I do not agree with dismissing the case based on your logical fallacy known as "Appeal to Authority."

An actual scientist doesn't automatically dismiss something based on his own BIAS and prejudice against the person demonstrating a cause and effect. And you sir... have a HUGE bias. "That's what she said!" ;)

Scientists are naturally CURIOUS. The scientist in me see this and thinks, "Holy crap, he may be on to something. Let's repeat that in a more controlled environment." The "gunsmith" in me also KNOWS that he's on to something. NOBODY who knows ANYTHING about firearms function and safety can argue that it's "normal" for the gun to fire under those conditions.

When people are being maimed and killed, this DESERVES to be investigated fully and independently. There is SOMETHING going on here. Dismissing it out of hand is an egregious injustice and morally repugnant.

When people were dying from taking Tylenol, the manufacturer SHUT THAT SHIT DOWN. Turns out it wasn't a manufacturing issue. It was a psychopath at work. But Tylenol DID THE RIGHT THING. And Tylenol saved their own bacon.

Sig needs to do the RIGHT THING. But they refuse. And that will spell the demise of Sig as a company. This ONE thing will take them down. Forever.
 
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Racer88 said:
So, get someone "qualified" to repeat the test! Holy shit.

Listen.. My entire life and education are based on Science. And no... I do not agree with dismissing the case based on your logical fallacy known as "Appeal to Authority."

An actual scientist doesn't automatically dismiss something based on his own BIAS and prejudice against the person demonstrating a cause and effect. And you sir... have a HUGE bias. "That's what she said!" ;)

Scientists are naturally CURIOUS. The scientist in me see this and thinks, "Holy crap, he may be on to something. Let's repeat that in a more controlled environment." The "gunsmith" in me also KNOWS that he's on to something. NOBODY who knows ANYTHING about firearms function and safety can argue that it's "normal" for the gun to fire under those conditions.
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You seem to be willing to accept the unqualified opinion of this YouTuber. How can anyone be sure this guy is even honest, let alone qualified? Anyone here know him? My guess is no. YouTube and social media click baiters and a wave of opinions by rubes on social media say the same thing? Not exactly scientific. It wouldn't shock me to learn a large number of those commentaries are bots.

I'm waiting for actual evidence. Not internet bullshit. I expect that's already under way with 'the murder weapon' as some Sig hating fanatics on the web are calling it. If that gun misfired, those conditions can and will be repeatable. If so, and the gun was not damaged in some way, Sig is toast.

This same testing I'm referring to has been repeatedly done on this model and all its incarnations. In at least one case I've read, randomly selected and bought at retail to eliminate any possibility of Sig modifying the guns. Yet no evidence of malfunction was proved. If it were, the gun would have been recalled. Mandatory. Possibly on a judge's order. And the DoD/Pentagon would likely have sought a replacement.

I don't have a dog in the fight. I just know bullshit when I see it. And there's a literal mountain of bullshit surrounding this gun's history.

SDS - Sig Derangement Syndrome. No different from Glock aficionados hating P80, 1911 lovers hating every other gun, Made up stories of Beretta's malfunctioning and getting men killed in Desert Storm, and on and on. Talk is cheap when the story is good.
 
There was yet ANOTHER video on YouTube that a guy in Wyoming showed that a 45 cal P320 he had, that he said was completely factory would fire if the slack/pre-travel was taken up on the trigger, and the slide was struck or wiggled aggressively. He fired 4 or 5 primed cases off in a row.
So, I once again got one of my p320s and took the slide off. As I slowly pulled the trigger back to take up the pre-travel, I noticed that the lever that lifts the striker block safety lever is moved during this taking up of the pre-travel. So, the most important, the most sure striker block safety mechanism is removed first before any other movement within the firing sequence. As a non-engineer, that doesn't make sense to me.
My P320s all have the modified sear, so just sear movement won't move the striker block safety. but any slight movement of the trigger will lift the striker block.
Hmmm . . . . .
Is it possible that these holsters that have molded areas that squeeze into the trigger guard make contact with the trigger, moving it just enough? Maybe it takes a twist movement to push slightly on the trigger? It should require much more than that to release the striker safety bar.
His slide - to - FCU rail mating was really sloppy. He wiggled his slide back and forth and up and down, really loose. Worse than a WWI 1911 with a bazillion rounds through it. With the sear in the FCU and the striker in the slide, moving it back and forth and up and down might be enough to release the striker.
It's all sounding like a ginormous problem, at least for some P320s. I know the ones I've built, I made sure there was almost no movement between the slide and FCU/frame.
We'll see what happens next, I guess.
 
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