Sig P320 "Uncommanded Discharges" (Merged Threads)

There was yet ANOTHER video on YouTube that a guy in Wyoming showed that a 45 cal P320 he had, that he said was completely factory would fire if the slack/pre-travel was taken up on the trigger, and the slide was struck or wiggled aggressively. He fired 4 or 5 primed cases off in a row.
So, I once again got one of my p320s and took the slide off. As I slowly pulled the trigger back to take up the pre-travel, I noticed that the lever that lifts the striker block safety lever is moved during this taking up of the pre-travel. So, the most important, the most sure striker block safety mechanism is removed first before any other movement within the firing sequence. As a non-engineer, that doesn't make sense to me.
My P320s all have the modified sear, so just sear movement won't move the striker block safety. but any slight movement of the trigger will lift the striker block.
Hmmm . . . . .
Is it possible that these holsters that have molded areas that squeeze into the trigger guard make contact with the trigger, moving it just enough? Maybe it takes a twist movement to push slightly on the trigger? It should require much more than that to release the striker safety bar.
His slide - to - FCU rail mating was really sloppy. He wiggled his slide back and forth and up and down, really loose. Worse than a WWI 1911 with a bazillion rounds through it. With the sear in the FCU and the striker in the slide, moving it back and forth and up and down might be enough to release the striker.
It's all sounding like a ginormous problem, at least for some P320s. I know the ones I've built, I made sure there was almost no movement between the slide and FCU/frame.
We'll see what happens next, I guess.
 
Bongo Lewi said:
You seem to be willing to accept the unqualified opinion of this YouTuber. How can anyone be sure this guy is even honest, let alone qualified? Anyone here know him? My guess is no. YouTube and social media click baiters and a wave of opinions by rubes on social media say the same thing? Not exactly scientific.
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Accepting? Depends on your definition. I already said I would like to see the same experiment repeated independently under more controlled circumstances.

And since you're appealing to authority... it raises the question of WHO? Who do you want doing it? It should be more than one agency or organization.

Bongo Lewi said:
I'm waiting for actual evidence. Not internet bullshit. I expect that's already under way with 'the murder weapon' as some Sig hating fanatics on the web are calling it. If that gun misfired, those conditions can and will be repeatable. If so, and the gun was not damaged in some way, Sig is toast.
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I don't hate Sig. I've never owned one. I've shot a couple (friend's) and they seem to be very nice guns. I don't have a dog in the fight. Sig was a contender in the search for a gun for my daughter.

But I'm smart enough to see what this particular youtuber did and that it merits further investigation. I think there is something to it. If not, independent repetition will refute it.

But just because it's a youtuber and just because his methods are a bit crude... it does not categorically negate the hypothesis. I'm hoping the military will conduct similar tests. I don't trust Sig to do it. And I don't trust the FBI, either. And I hope some other credible INDEPENDENT firearms experts repeat the experiment, too.

Something stinks. And as a man of Science, I won't automatically dismiss the youtuber's findings. He was transparent about his methodology. And while crude, he was on the right track.

I kinda wish I had a 320 to test myself!
 
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TomR2 said:
There was yet ANOTHER video on YouTube that a guy in Wyoming showed that a 45 cal P320 he had, that he said was completely factory would fire if the slack/pre-travel was taken up on the trigger, and the slide was struck or wiggled aggressively. He fired 4 or 5 primed cases off in a row.
So, I once again got one of my p320s and took the slide off. As I slowly pulled the trigger back to take up the pre-travel, I noticed that the lever that lifts the striker block safety lever is moved during this taking up of the pre-travel. So, the most important, the most sure striker block safety mechanism is removed first before any other movement within the firing sequence. As a non-engineer, that doesn't make sense to me.
My P320s all have the modified sear, so just sear movement won't move the striker block safety. but any slight movement of the trigger will lift the striker block.
Hmmm . . . . .
Is it possible that these holsters that have molded areas that squeeze into the trigger guard make contact with the trigger, moving it just enough? Maybe it takes a twist movement to push slightly on the trigger? It should require much more than that to release the striker safety bar.
His slide - to - FCU rail mating was really sloppy. He wiggled his slide back and forth and up and down, really loose. Worse than a WWI 1911 with a bazillion rounds through it. With the sear in the FCU and the striker in the slide, moving it back and forth and up and down might be enough to release the striker.
It's all sounding like a ginormous problem, at least for some P320s. I know the ones I've built, I made sure there was almost no movement between the slide and FCU/frame.
We'll see what happens next, I guess.
Click to expand...

Yep. I posted it here:

Sig P320 "Uncommanded Discharges" (Merged Threads)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NapE4CkWpHk&ab_channel=ColionNoir One interesting aspect of this Sig controversy is you never hear about an investigation of the holster.
www.patriotgunbuilders.com www.patriotgunbuilders.com

Mind if I repost your comment over on that thread? :-)
 
TomR2 said:
As I slowly pulled the trigger back to take up the pre-travel, I noticed that the lever that lifts the striker block safety lever is moved during this taking up of the pre-travel.
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TomR2 said:
but any slight movement of the trigger will lift the striker block.
Hmmm . . . . .
Click to expand...
TomR2 said:
Is it possible that these holsters that have molded areas that squeeze into the trigger guard make contact with the trigger, moving it just enough? Maybe it takes a twist movement to push slightly on the trigger? It should require much more than that to release the striker safety bar.
Click to expand...

Bingo!

Even if that's true about the holsters... the 1-mm of movement of the trigger shouldn't render it susceptible to firing with movement of the slide.
 
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The other thing to consider with the Sig. If the trigger does not reset all the way and gets stuck on the shelf, I’ve read about, and regardless of the trigger being pulled, it appears that the gun can go off with the movements he was showing in the video. He was simulating that failure. Can happen to modded Glocks by those who don’t know what they are doing but it seems that Sig may be on the ragged edge from the start. I would test one of mine but it is one Sig that had zero appeal to me so I never purchased one.
 
Racer88 said:
But just because it's a youtuber and just because his methods are a bit crude... it does not categorically negate the hypothesis.
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Actually, it does. The first thing an expert witness is asked in a courtroom is to explain their qualifications and experience. Unqualified opinions must absolutely be dismissed as conjecture. Guesswork.

To me, this Sig issue follows the same pattern as people on Facebook or X speculating on why a plane crashed. None of them know jack squat about aircraft, aren't pilots, aren't aeronautical engineers, maybe never even been on an airplane. Certainly not in the cockpit of a small aircraft or the flight deck of an airliner. More importantly, they weren't there. They know nothing, yet are firm in their belief that they know what happened. Because they just know.

I've never had the luxury of confirmation bias. When I designed systems for refining, power, chemical, etc that could catastrophically fail and cost millions in damage maybe kill or injure workers, there was no guessing. Same goes for leading an armed security detail in places where hostility and violence toward Americans is the norm. Mistakes can end with death. Possibly your own.

So pardon my rigidity on this and my confessed lack of psychic ability. Nobody knows what happened when this airman was killed. Or how a handful of cops and military personnel end up with 'uncommanded discharges'. Emphasis on handful when hundreds of thousands of these guns have been issued and carried since 2017 - many in combat.

Could it be possible a dozen, maybe two dozen out of 100,000 guns has a manufacturing defect? Of course. So you look at the guns that have failed and attempt to replicate the failure. If there's defect in the gun, it doesn't only happen once. That would be impossible.

Our Wyoming YouTuber said he could make that P320 fail five times in a row. Interesting that such glaring defect has not been found by experts since 2017. He must be a genius.
 
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And so it begins (continues)... ;) Aim Surplus ad...

sig4sail.JPG
 
Racer88 said:
I just finished watching the whole video. It's done very well.

My theory:

So, perhaps the holsters are putting just enough pressure on the trigger (less than a millimeter!)... and then when the slide is jostled... BANG.

So, based on what I know about this stuff from building Glock clones.... The sear engagement must be very poor to begin with. One of the many tests we builders do is to confirm adequate (at least 3/4) sear engagement. Furthermore, besides drop testing, we jiggle the slide every which way we can... all while observing the sear engagement through an armorer's slide rear plate cover.

No bueno for Sig. NO BUENO.
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I've built several Glock clones and modified one of the rear slide covers so I could easily see the sear engagement, as many others have done. So, I did the same for the one commercial Sig P320, and the P320s I've built at home. I have 100% engagement on all of them, even with banging on the slide from several different directions with a rubber mallet.
So far, I've not been able to get any of ours to have a failure. I've tried several different 'tests' that others have suggested. So, I'm confident about them. I've not heard of the local range we've been going to recently prohibiting them, but it may happen at some point. We have alternatives that won't be affected.
And, I'm confident enough that if I decide to carry one anywhere (I have one designated for an outdoors trail/hiking pistol in 357Sig) I won't worry about it.
 
Much like Glock and clones, some have great sear engagement while others don’t. On could duplicate the same experiment with many Glock/clones. If you pull the trigger on a gun with little pre-travel and put additional pressure and move the sear down on the lug, many will release the striker if the tolerances became too loose with wear.

I suspect there is something, a shelf created through wear of an MIM part, that is causing it to catch before it the trigger fully returns to it’s normal resting position and pair that with sloppy tolerances and this issue can happen. This is not really an a-ha moment but does draw light to sloppy tolerances and a trigger that may be wound a little to tight for carry duty.
 
Message from Sigmund and the Sea Monsters!
This came in my Email box not long ago--I converted to .pdf for youse.

sig.jpg
 

Attachments

Bobster said:
Message from Sigmund and the Sea Monsters!
This came in my Email box not long ago--I converted to .pdf for youse.

View attachment 33895
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I was coming here to share the same message. For those who don't want to jump through the PDF hoops:

SIG SAUER

P320 Information​

​
P320 Safety Information

Recently, there have been a number of reports and claims regarding the safety of the P320 pistol and its use by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies. We understand you may have questions. We want to address your concerns and provide you with full, complete, and accurate information.

SIG SAUER has ALWAYS and will continue to put the safety and security of the U.S. Military, the law enforcement community, our consumers, and the public first. To this end, we want to be sure concerned citizens have access to complete facts.

The P320 pistol is one of the safest, most advanced pistols in the world -meeting and exceeding all industry safety standards. Its design has been thoroughly tested and validated by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies at the federal, state and local levels. In addition, the P320 has been rigorously tested, and is currently in use by militaries and law enforcement agencies around the world.

FBI Testing and Report

A recently publicized internal report from the FBI’s Ballistic Research Facility (BRF) created some confusion and raised questions about the safety of the P320. The FBI prepared this report for the Michigan State Police after an officer was involved in an accidental discharge. SIG SAUER engineers met with the FBI and Michigan State Police on several occasions to review the report and the incident. Ultimately, the FBI conducted a more detailed, repeatable, and comprehensive battery of testing using compatible equipment. The subsequent testing resulted in zero instances of failures and the Michigan State Police are now confidently issuing officers P320 based pistols. The FBI BRF have yet to make any official claims or statements regarding the safety of the P320 pistol or any of its variants. However, we are urging the FBI BRF and FBI Director Kash Patel to release a full and complete testing and evaluation report on their updated P320 safety testing.

Department of Homeland Security

An internal memo from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)/ U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was recently posted online stating the agency was halting its use of the P320. Many online media outlets immediately sought to attribute this to the above referenced FBI BRF report, which is incorrect. DHS has never raised any safety concerns about the P320 and ICE has since extended their existing contract with SIG SAUER another two years. Since DHS has yet to comment publicly correcting their improperly leaked memo, or any statements questioning the safety of the P320, we are now urging ICE to release all information on P320 testing. SIG SAUER is honored to continue aiding ICE in their mission to protect America.

U.S. Air Force M18

There was a recent tragic incident at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming which resulted in the death of an Airman. Because the incident involved the discharge of a (P320 based) M18 pistol, the Air Force is actively conducting an evaluation of M18 pistols within the specific Command where the incident happened. This cautionary step is standard procedure. We proactively offered assistance to the U.S. military as they investigate the incident. Contrary to several online reports, (P320 based) M17 and M18 pistols remain on active duty with all branches of the U.S. Military, including the U.S. Air Force, defending freedom around the world. We have absolute confidence in the U.S. Military’s ability to conduct a thorough investigation and report their findings. As we learn more information about the investigation, we will continue to provide updated information.

P320 Range and Training Bans

Following several of these inaccurate reports, a number of ranges, training providers, and training facilities made the reactionary decision to ban the P320 and its use in their facilities. We are actively working to provide these individuals with accurate information along with a detailed understanding of the P320 and its safety features. If you are impacted by a P320 range or a training provider ban, we urge you to reach out to SIG CUSTOMER SERVICE: 603-610-3000 Option 1 or send a message here so we can clarify any misinformation and provide the truth.

The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without the trigger first being moved to the rear. This has been verified through exhaustive testing by SIG SAUER engineers, the U.S. Military, several major federal and state law enforcement agencies, and independent laboratories. This video provides a detailed view into all of the various safety features of the P320 and provides a detailed explanation of how the safety system works; for further information on the P320 please visit here.

As with any gun, the P320 will discharge if the trigger is pulled to the rear. Accordingly, SIG SAUER continues to remind its customers, employees, and the public to employ all safe gun-handling practices as spelled out in detail in our product manuals. The SIG SAUER Academy remains a resource to customers, employees, and the public in offering various firearms safety courses.

We respect the public’s concern and are actively working to provide as much information as possible. We sincerely thank you for your continued support of SIG SAUER and urge anyone with additional questions or concerns regarding the P320 and/or safe firearms handling to reach out to our customer service team.
​
SIG SAUER, Inc.
72 Pease Blvd.
Newington, NH 03801

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SIG SAUER 72 PEASE BLVD NEWINGTON, New Hampshire 03801​
 
This is not going to end well for Sig. And it will be their own undoing.
 
I'm not a geography buff but I had no idea the river of DeNile runs right though New Hampshire.


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Racer88 said:

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/DMxjMursIj1/
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At the Action Steel shoot today in Orlando (CFRPC), during the pre-match announcements it was noted that while P320s would be allowed today, the further usage would be determined at the club meeting later this coming week. Sig fanbois were directed to go to the website to see if there would a ban for later matches. :eek:

Later, one of the members theorized/quipped about creating "Glock"-branded grip modules and slides and offering them for sale... :unsure: 😇
 
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