Toyota has given up on EVs. Not.

[Racer88]

You own the house but you cant run it without paying The Man. If you are on city water. There are a million other examples of how HOAs can tell you WTF you can and cant do with your home and property. You sign that contract when you buy the home. If your car can go 200 mph, that doesn't mean you can ignore freeway speed limits because it's your car and you can do what you want. Nothing works that way in a modern society.

All false equivalencies. Like not even close. I'll try to make the point clear one more time, one more way: You have to pay your builder a subscription fee to use / unlock extra bedrooms that are already there in your house.

This is not 3rd party services (like city services). It's not about HOAs (I'd never live in one) who charge you for the common amenities and facilities not attached to your house. Nor is it about laws concerned with actions and behaviors.

 

[Racer88]

You own the house but you cant run it without paying The Man. If you are on city water. There are a million other examples of how HOAs can tell you WTF you can and cant do with your home and property. You sign that contract when you buy the home. If your car can go 200 mph, that doesn't mean you can ignore freeway speed limits because it's your car and you can do what you want. Nothing works that way in a modern society.

All false equivalencies. Like not even close. I'll try to make the point clear one more time, one more way: You have to pay your builder a subscription fee to use / unlock extra bedrooms that are already there in your house (that you already paid for).

This is not 3rd party services (like city services). It's not about HOAs (I'd never live in one) who charge you for the common amenities and facilities not attached to your house. Nor is it about laws concerned with actions and behaviors.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Every time I have ever been on a city sewer system I paid a fixed monthly fee. Not "per flush" not "per gallon"

Every house I have owned had a water meter and the wastewater fees were calculated on how much water was used. 10 gallons of fresh water = 10 gallons of effluent. Someimes they use cubic feet as a measure. I have never seen a fixed rate for sewer anywhere. It's always been calculated. I have seen a flat piggyback tax for wastewater treatment plant operation.

 

[NavyVette]

Every house I have owned had a water meter and the wastewater fees were calculated on how much water was used. 10 gallons of fresh water = 10 gallons of effluent. Someimes they use cubic feet as a measure. I have never seen a fixed rate for sewer anywhere. It's always been calculated. I have seen a flat piggyback tax for wastewater treatment plant operation.

Last place I lived with a sewer connection was 35 bucks a month for water, sewer and garbage pickup.

I admit, it's been over 20 years since I paid a sewer bill, but still you are not paying "per flush" unless only your toilets go to the sewer.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

You have to pay your builder a subscription fee to use / unlock extra bedrooms that are already there in your house.

I'll stick with my use case vs the bill of materials of a car or a house. Did you turn on your MySubaru telematics? I'm guessing no.

Connected Services | Subaru

Subaru vehicles offer advanced safety, navigation, and entertainment technology through connected services like MySubaru Connected Services and SubaruConnect.

www.subaru.com

Those features are built-in. You seem to be arguing that you can demand they turn those services on because you paid for the hardware. It's built in and cannot be removed from the car. Your only option is choosing to not use them. Not paying extra to do so. That doesn't change the fact that the car has those features.

 

[NavyVette]

I'll stick with my use case vs the bill of materials of a car or a house. Did you turn on your MySubaru telematics? I'm guessing no.

Connected Services | Subaru

Subaru vehicles offer advanced safety, navigation, and entertainment technology through connected services like MySubaru Connected Services and SubaruConnect.

www.subaru.com

Those features are built-in. You seem to be arguing that you can demand they turn those services on because you paid for the hardware. It's built in and cannot be removed from the car. Your only option is choosing to not use them. Not paying extra to do so. That doesn't change the fact that the car has those features.

That is a feature that requires Subaru to maintain services including compute, some sote of transmission servise, etcetera.

A seat heater requires NO ongoing service from the manufacturer.

Not the same.

I do not and never have paid for OnStar - I see no value in it, but by not paying or it, none of the features in any of my many GM vehicles have ever not worked.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Last place I lived with a sewer connection was 35 bucks a month for water, sewer and garbage pickup.

I admit, it's been over 20 years since I paid a sewer bill, but still you are not paying "per flush" unless only your toilets go to the sewer.

That's correct. Sort of. The water meter always spins when you flush a toilet. You are getting hosed (pun intended) because the water you use to wash your car io water your tomato is not going onto the wastewater system. Or from a lawn sprinkler. My last home had city water and sewer, but the hose bibs outside the house all came off a well with a small 3/4 horse jet pump. They did this with all the houses in the community.

There were a few homes that had a gray water system. You had to pay extra for that. Every drain except the toilets and garbage disposal in the kitchen fed a tank in the basement. All other sinks, showers, tub, laundry water all went to the tank. The gray water fed the lawn watering system. Very cool how it all worked. Probably a very long return on investment due to the cost of putting that in though. Those homes metered fresh water separately from wastewater. You paid only for wastewater from the kitchen sink and toilets. I dont think that's very common. Not yet anyway.

 

[NavyVette]

That's correct. Sort of. The water meter always spins when you flush a toilet. You are getting hosed (pun intended) because the water you use to wash your car io water your tomato is not going onto the wastewater system. Or from a lawn sprinkler. My last home had city water and sewer, but the hose bibs outside the house all came off a well with a small 3/4 horse jet pump. They did this with all the houses in the community.

There were a few homes that had a gray water system. You had to pay extra for that. Every drain except the toilets and garbage disposal in the kitchen fed a tank in the basement. All other sinks, showers, tub, laundry water all went to the tank. The gray water fed the lawn watering system. Very cool how it all worked. Probably a very long return on investment due to the cost of putting that in though. Those homes metered fresh water separately from wastewater. You paid only for wastewater from the kitchen sink and toilets. I dont think that's very common. Not yet anyway.

That's actually a cool setup.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I do not and never have paid for OnStar - I see no value in it, but by not paying or it, none of the features in any of my many GM vehicles have ever not worked.

Want vs. need. I lean more toward want.

Don't lock your keys in your car at Walmart when it's raining cats and dogs

I'd rather just call the car and tell it to meet me at the front door so I dont get wet. Then unlock the doors.

A seat heater requires NO ongoing service from the manufacturer.

Not the same.

I do not and never have paid for OnStar - I see no value in it, but by not paying or it, none of the features in any of my many GM vehicles have ever not worked.

Sure it does. If you signed up to only use it once in a while (like in winter) they either have to turn it on/off and bill you. If you have seat heater and never use them that's the true waste of money.

Let's take this in a different direction. You have a rally nice car that has heated and air conditioned seats. The car is constantly monitoring your ass temperature as you drive. Should said ass exceed the normal temperature, it asks if you would like to cool it off or heat it up. That's a value-added service.

I agree the pay seat heaters was the dumbest idea ever. This is not a good example of how this all can or should work.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I should patent that idea. It would eliminate swamp ass. Which is common just about everywhere south of the Mason Dixon in summer.

 

[NavyVette]

Ok, I just thought of an anlaogy for your sewer / house example.

Say you buy a Dell computer. You cannot use it without paying for electricity. Never mind where it comes from, you paiy for the electiricity. That is certainally a part of owning a Dell, but is not a subscription, nor is something Dell forces on you to use the computer.

Now suppose Dell decides to charge you 30 cents everytime you decide to login to the computer, and 20 cents for each program you open, and 30 dollars for everytime you gor to patriotgunbuilders.com even though Dell has no capital investment in providing those services.

They are just charging you because they can.

 

[Bobster]

Every house I have owned had a water meter and the wastewater fees were calculated on how much water was used. 10 gallons of fresh water = 10 gallons of effluent.

We are not on sewer but someone I know in the city is on sewer and they were paying about 3x the water fee (based on usage) for the sewer fee. In my case we use about 4000gal a month (4 people) at a cost of ~$28. Just to be tied into the system is $18/month so that amount of water cost $10. So they aren't actually measuring sewerage out, just assuming what goes in comes back out and basing fees on that...

 

[Bongo Lewi]

We are not on sewer but someone I know in the city is on sewer and they were paying about 3x the water fee (based on usage) for the sewer fee. In my case we use about 4000gal a month (4 people) at a cost of ~$28. Just to be tied into the system is $18/month so that amount of water cost $10. So they aren't actually measuring sewerage out, just assuming what goes in comes back out and basing fees on that..

We are not on sewer but someone I know in the city is on sewer and they were paying about 3x the water fee (based on usage) for the sewer fee. In my case we use about 4000gal a month (4 people) at a cost of ~$28. Just to be tied into the system is $18/month so that amount of water cost $10. So they aren't actually measuring sewerage out, just assuming what goes in comes back out and basing fees on that...

Meters on wastewater are extremely rare. It’s almost always calculated based on fresh water usage. The reason for this is it’s mechanically complicated to make a meter that can handle turds.

Some homes have hybrid systems that have a septic tank but no drain field. A macerating pump grinds up and forwards the nasty stuff to a sewer system.

Some municipalities charge for wastewater and add extra fees for treatment.

Some communities bake water and sewer into HOA fees.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Ok, I just thought of an anlaogy for your sewer / house example.

Say you buy a Dell computer. You cannot use it without paying for electricity. Never mind where it comes from, you paiy for the electiricity. That is certainally a part of owning a Dell, but is not a subscription, nor is something Dell forces on you to use the computer.

Now suppose Dell decides to charge you 30 cents everytime you decide to login to the computer, and 20 cents for each program you open, and 30 dollars for everytime you gor to patriotgunbuilders.com even though Dell has no capital investment in providing those services.

They are just charging you because they can.

The concept of micropayments sprang from the computer business. It started out like you describe. The evolution was ad driven services . Everything we do on a computer that’s free isn’t. In most cases it’s funded by ads. So you aren’t paying for everything you do, but somebody is.

Your computer analogy is a good example but I don’t think electricity is the enabler. It’s the fuel. A computer simply being powered up does nothing but generate heat. Services (software) is what delivers value to the user.

20 years ago the idea of email or word processing or spreadsheets being a subscription was thought to be ridiculous. Now it’s the standard. Pretty much everything on a computer today is either funded by ad impressions or subscription fees.

Streaming content too. Don’t want ads? You have to pay. Want to watch a certain film? You have to pay.

This is where cars are headed. Your computer or Smart TV or car deliver services to you. Without those services they don’t do much at all. It’s only just getting started with cars. So that begs the question … what are the basic, baseline features of a car and what are the extras you pay for? Traditionally those were called options. In the future they will be services. The car becomes a platform.

The things we grew up with and the way they worked are going away. I’m not suggesting it’s good or bad. It’s just how it is. The good news is old cars are going to be around for a while. You can just drive one of those. Or move to one of those communities where everybody drives a golf cart and forget about all of this.

 

[One Ping Only]

Personally I don’t care for onstar whatsoever so when their “complimentary” service term ends ona new vehicle I could care less if I already haven’t found a way to defeat/disable it entirely. The ability of someone to remotely control or shut down my car is unacceptable.

As far as subscription-based options, and yes I know that some have been here awhile; but “where this is going” they can pound sand. Ultimately, when the buying public pushes back and isn’t buying their product, THEY will be forced to change their business model to what the customer wants. Not what the business dictates to the customer.

When my wife got her last new Dodge Charger RT/RT, it had Sirius and we let it expire and didn’t renew it. Neither I nor she could care less.

I’ll buy a well-done restomod before I buy that new subscription based options vehicle. Because I adamantly won’t.

 

[One Ping Only]

Last place I lived with a sewer connection was 35 bucks a month for water, sewer and garbage pickup.

I admit, it's been over 20 years since I paid a sewer bill, but still you are not paying "per flush" unless only your toilets go to the sewer.

We too had a similar situation the last home we owned regarding flat rate for sewer and garbage; and being on a county island, also had flouride-free delicious water from the county’s well.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I’ll buy a well-done restomod before I buy that new subscription based options vehicle. Because I adamantly won’t.

That's going to be what a lot of people do. Modern cars are going to look like this:


I like the green one in the middle best. Vintage microcar from the 60's. The left and right are where modern cars are headed. They will be incredibly automated. Especially in an urban setting. I know that makes some car lovers want to cry, but time never goes backwards.

The plumber will say... How am I supposed to haul pipe with that? The answer is you wont. You will order the pipe and fittings with a handheld computer and the materials will be delivered to the job site by an automated delivery vehicle. When you take a lunch break, a drone will deliver a cold cut sub and fries to the job site.

NEVER GONNA HAPPEN! That's what the guy who sold horses said to Henry Ford. Horses didnt disappear. But five tons of horseshit no longer had to be cleaned off the streets of Manhattan every day.

Old traditions die hard. Why the fuck anybody pays for this ride is beyond me.



Imagine getting up on a freezing-ass cold morning and just to go somewhere you have to harness-up the horse, pull the carriage out and get everything ready to go. You know who thinks these days were wonderful and romantic? Nitwits. Nostalgia is over-rated. Modern cars will soon barely resemble what most of us grew up with. Like it, not like it... doesn't matter. It's going to happen. If you have grandkids or will someday, they will view cars from our era like that horse and carriage.

Or... you can join the Amish. For some people, that's a good option.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Personally I don’t care for onstar whatsoever so when their “complimentary” service term ends ona new vehicle I could care less if I already haven’t found a way to defeat/disable it entirely. The ability of someone to remotely control or shut down my car is unacceptable.

As far as subscription-based options, and yes I know that some have been here awhile; but “where this is going” they can pound sand. Ultimately, when the buying public pushes back and isn’t buying their product, THEY will be forced to change their business model to what the customer wants. Not what the business dictates to the customer.

When my wife got her last new Dodge Charger RT/RT, it had Sirius and we let it expire and didn’t renew it. Neither I nor she could care less.

I’ll buy a well-done restomod before I buy that new subscription based options vehicle. Because I adamantly won’t.

I don't turn any of that stuff on because I find it useless. Sirius sucks. On-Star and similar services by Ford and Stellantis... We may all disagree with the ever growing addition of telematics to cars but it aint gonna stop. Carmakers dont give a shit about people who want to drive a plain vanilla car with no automation, flat screen, etc. You are not the customer they seek. Because there is no money in it. Especially EV's because they are so much cheaper to build. The high cost of today's EVs is all in the batteries and that too will change. Watch what Tesla and BYD do. That's the future of cars.

Somebody asked me if I thought the Big Three will get their act together. I think so but I would not place a big bet on it. I think it's more likely they are going to milk the market for all they can. Selling the cars they know how to build. Like how Microsoft is trying to squeeze the last drippings of revenue from the Windows franchise. It was a good run. But Windows as we know it is on life support. Like today's cars.

Ask not for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee.

 

[Racer88]

Or move to one of those communities where everybody drives a golf cart and forget about all of this.

GAWD, no.

 

[Racer88]

Sirius sucks.

Love, love, LOVE my Sirius XM in the car. Regular radio suuuuuuuuuuuucks.