124 vs 147-gr HP 9-mm ammo for SD?

Keep in mind that barrel length is crucial to expansion. If the ammo you carry was tested for expansion in a service length 4.5" barrel, and you carry a sub compact pistol with a 2.5" barrel, make sure it will expand.

Case in point:
Real life, not ballistic gel results.

Back in 2015, a friend of mine was involved in a SD shooting at his home. Two bad guys attacked him. He shot one of them twice with a Beretta Nano pistol loaded with Fiocchi SD ammo. (Don't recall the bullet weight, but the pic suggests it's about 115gr.)
Both slugs exited the BG. And he wasn't scrawny either 225lbs. at least.
One slug was captured by his clothing when it exited his back.
The other is pictured here in the police evidence photo.
Neither bullet expanded at all and could be reloaded and fired again.
What stopped the fight was one bullet severed his aorta and his BP tanked in seconds.

My friend spent 15 months in the county jail awaiting trial due to the press crucifying him in the news and making the BG out to be a saint Little League coach and husband and father of 2 etc. Bail was so high he couldn't post bond.
Long story short, his friends raised the money to get him a sure 'nuff Matlock attorney who won him an acquittal on all charges.

So the next time you're asleep in bed and there's a knock at the door, don't be like my friend and just answer it.

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Keep in mind that barrel length is crucial to expansion. If the ammo you carry was tested for expansion in a service length 4.5" barrel, and you carry a sub compact pistol with a 2.5" barrel, make sure it will expand.

Case in point:
Real life, not ballistic gel results.

Back in 2015, a friend of mine was involved in a SD shooting at his home. Two bad guys attacked him. He shot one of them twice with a Beretta Nano pistol loaded with Fiocchi SD ammo. (Don't recall the bullet weight, but the pic suggests it's about 115gr.)
Both slugs exited the BG. And he wasn't scrawny either 225lbs. at least.
One slug was captured by his clothing when it exited his back.
The other is pictured here in the police evidence photo.
Neither bullet expanded at all and could be reloaded and fired again.
What stopped the fight was one bullet severed his aorta and his BP tanked in seconds.

My friend spent 15 months in the county jail awaiting trial due to the press crucifying him in the news and making the BG out to be a saint Little League coach and husband and father of 2 etc. Bail was so high he couldn't post bond.
Long story short, his friends raised the money to get him a sure 'nuff Matlock attorney who won him an acquittal on all charges.

So the next time you're asleep in bed and there's a knock at the door, don't be like my friend and just answer it.

View attachment 7530

Yikes. I'm more interested in the story of the encounter / attack.

But, yeah... I never ever EVER answer the door to a stranger. Day or night. If I'm not expecting you, or I don't know you, I will NOT open the door. Period. I don't care if it's a "girl scout" selling cookies.
 
Yikes. I'm more interested in the story of the encounter / attack.

But, yeah... I never ever EVER answer the door to a stranger. Day or night. If I'm not expecting you, or I don't know you, I will NOT open the door. Period. I don't care if it's a "girl scout" selling cookies.
It was a long and sordid story. One that makes you question your faith in LE upholding the law.

Bo and his girlfriend hosted a birthday party for his girlfriend's twin teenage girls.
Dead guys teenage son (12 y.o.) and his friend attend the party.
The two boys leave the party and start to walk home. Calls his Mom to pick him up several blocks from the party. Mom is driving because Dad is drunk.
Tells his Mom they left because the adults were drinking and smoking cigars. (Comes out later that the kid was crushing on one of the birthday girls, but she wasn't interested, as the reason they left. They also did not tell the adults they were leaving.)

Mom and Dad take the son out to dinner and Daddy starts fuming about lack of adult supervision at the party and letting the boy leave. Daddy and his BIL had been boozing that afternoon and were still drunk. Daddy works himself into a full blown rage and Mom drops him and her brother at the house and takes the kids to her Mother's house.
Daddy and BIL decide to go over to Bo's house and teach him a lesson. BIL is a felon BTW. They take the BIL's truck.

About 10pm they ring Bo's doorbell. He's already turned in for the night.
His house has no windows in the door or that look out onto the porch. No peep hole in the door. He has to open it to see who it is.
He answers the door in boxers and a tee shirt. He took the Nano off the night stand when he left the bedroom.
Two dudes who he has never seen before start wailing on him. His girlfriend calls 911.
He shoots the Daddy twice.
Cops arrive. Take statements. Say it looks like a clear case of SD to them. All that did a 180 once the media got involved.

Media circus ensues. Facts are twisted. Facts are omitted. Sheriff passes the now hot potato to the DA. DA takes 2 weeks before charging Bo.

Strangely, no one asks how two drunks got to Bo's house. BIL's P/U was there with guns and liquor bottles inside. (There were police evidence photos of this) BIL is not charged with anything even though he is a felon in possesion of a firearm. By the time it goes to trial, BIL is on version 3.0 of his story of what went down after versions 1 & 2 don't hold water. Prosecution still puts him on the stand. Matlock shreds him. Matlock also shreds prosecutions other witnesses and even the investigator assigned to the case. The son, now 13, goes on the stand and admits Daddy and Uncle said they were going to Bo's house to beat Bo up and he pleaded with his Dad not to go.

"Forensics Expert" for the prosecution had all sorts of damning "evidence", like how the shots were administered "execution style". Matlock cross examines and reveals, A. he doesn't have a degree in anything. B. He never examined the physical evidence or the "crime scene" in person. He was sent a photo CD and based his conclusions on that.

After the verdict was read and Bo was acquitted, the judge even said to the BIL that "If there's one person responsible for the death of Brandon Weaver, it's you."
The judge and jury knew the case didn't pass the smell test.

To add insult to injury, Bo did not walk out of the courtroom a free man like you see on TV. He was returned to the county jail, made to change back into the orange jumpsuit, return to his cell and await out processing several hours later. Took him months to get his guns back. (They confiscated every gun in the house) Sheriff's Office said there wasn't a procedure for returning seized property. Even then, one of the pistols was missing a red dot sight.

The same Atlanta TV station that had saturation coverage of the arrest, DA bringing charges, and trial, was silent on his acquittal.

Only the local newspaper ran a piece about it.
 
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His house has no windows in the door or that look out onto the porch. No peep hole in the door. He has to open it to see who it is.

There is no need to "see who it is." I find this compulsion to "see who it is" a rather peculiar (and common) human trait. I see it all the time with cell phones. So many people will see a missed call - with no voicemail message left - and then CALL that number BACK just to "see who it was."

I find this desire to "know who it is" to be... well... I'm not going to say it out loud. But, yeah...

I do not feel ANY obligation to answer the door, phone, etc... to an unknown or unexpected person.
 
There is no need to "see who it is." I find this compulsion to "see who it is" a rather peculiar (and common) human trait. I see it all the time with cell phones. So many people will see a missed call - with no voicemail message left - and then CALL that number BACK just to "see who it was."

I find this desire to "know who it is" to be... well... I'm not going to say it out loud. But, yeah...

I do not feel ANY obligation to answer the door, phone, etc... to an unknown or unexpected person.
Bo said the thought that he had at the time was that with the urgency that they were knocking on the door that there might have been an accident or some other emergency. He had just hosted a kids birthday party and had no idea of what had gone on in the mean time. I'm sure that since then his procedure for screening unexpected visitors is much different than before.
 
Wow, that is one way to make ballistics discussions boring...😬 Of course, the other way to make the discussions boring is to just have them...:ROFLMAO: Well, boring is as boring does, so I'll go back on-topic!:geek:

MVV. Or Mass times Velocity squared. The more you reduce Mass (up to a certain point), the faster your bullet will travel on the same powder-load, and it provides far more energy. Running shorter barrels leaves less time for the energy in the powder-charge to accelerate your projectile, and you subsequently loose velocity. I am sure there is a 'sweet spot' for any given barrel-length with regards to ideal grain-weight, and damn I used to be deep into this stuff... My preferred load-out for 9mm was 115 gr. MUCH higher energy than the 147 gr alternatives. Hydra-Shok was the go-to round for LE Department issue, but I preferred the Winchester Silver Tips back then. I had a bias against the 147 gr, they were the ONLY grain-weight any of us experienced any feed problems with. I did end up going to Cor-Bon +P as my personal defense cartridge in my G19 (when I wasn't carrying my S&W 10mm :devilish:). Now, the 124 gr has really stepped up to being a better balance of the two loads, so I am good with anything in the 115-124 gr. The HIGHER the velocity, BTW, the BETTER the barrier penetration, NOT the higher the weight. BP is a big deal to me, so another reason why I would rather have lighter/faster than slower/heavier. I am not as concerned regarding over-penetration as many people are, probably because of my focus on 10mm in the first place... Two holes means twice the bleeding, and a lot more pain for the subject -pain and shock are two critical components on disabling (not necessarily 'killing') a bad-guy, and in a defensive-shooting senario, I want the other guy STOPPED. Dead isn't my end-goal, STOPPED is. I fully understand the ideal of transferring all of the bullet's ballistic energy into the target, and over-penetration reduces that effect, but I also consider what the target may be wearing -a tee-shirt? A leather jacket? Heavy denim? And what is he behind... Drywall? Glass? I want more energy to get through those things. I also know center-mass isn't always the strike you get, and if I hit a limb, I want enough energy to disable at least that limb -a 147 gr typically just doesn't have enough oomph to shatter bone, IIRC. Yeah, that takes me back to 10mm... Off topic.
So short answer is NOT 147 gr for me.🤪
 
Wow, that is one way to make ballistics discussions boring...😬 Of course, the other way to make the discussions boring is to just have them...:ROFLMAO: Well, boring is as boring does, so I'll go back on-topic!:geek:

MVV. Or Mass times Velocity squared. The more you reduce Mass (up to a certain point), the faster your bullet will travel on the same powder-load, and it provides far more energy. Running shorter barrels leaves less time for the energy in the powder-charge to accelerate your projectile, and you subsequently loose velocity. I am sure there is a 'sweet spot' for any given barrel-length with regards to ideal grain-weight, and damn I used to be deep into this stuff... My preferred load-out for 9mm was 115 gr. MUCH higher energy than the 147 gr alternatives. Hydra-Shok was the go-to round for LE Department issue, but I preferred the Winchester Silver Tips back then. I had a bias against the 147 gr, they were the ONLY grain-weight any of us experienced any feed problems with. I did end up going to Cor-Bon +P as my personal defense cartridge in my G19 (when I wasn't carrying my S&W 10mm :devilish:). Now, the 124 gr has really stepped up to being a better balance of the two loads, so I am good with anything in the 115-124 gr. The HIGHER the velocity, BTW, the BETTER the barrier penetration, NOT the higher the weight. BP is a big deal to me, so another reason why I would rather have lighter/faster than slower/heavier. I am not as concerned regarding over-penetration as many people are, probably because of my focus on 10mm in the first place... Two holes means twice the bleeding, and a lot more pain for the subject -pain and shock are two critical components on disabling (not necessarily 'killing') a bad-guy, and in a defensive-shooting senario, I want the other guy STOPPED. Dead isn't my end-goal, STOPPED is. I fully understand the ideal of transferring all of the bullet's ballistic energy into the target, and over-penetration reduces that effect, but I also consider what the target may be wearing -a tee-shirt? A leather jacket? Heavy denim? And what is he behind... Drywall? Glass? I want more energy to get through those things. I also know center-mass isn't always the strike you get, and if I hit a limb, I want enough energy to disable at least that limb -a 147 gr typically just doesn't have enough oomph to shatter bone, IIRC. Yeah, that takes me back to 10mm... Off topic.
So short answer is NOT 147 gr for me.🤪

I understand E=1/2M*V^2 and M=MV.

Lower mass with the same powder charge would mean increased velocity, of course.

My question is: Do the HST 124-gr and 147-gr loads have the same powder charge?
 
My question is: Do the HST 124-gr and 147-gr loads have the same powder charge?
Ooo, excellent question. No idea.😁😜 Either pull a couple apart and weigh the powder, assume they use the same powder-type/formula, or contact Hornady and see if they are willing to tell you. However, I don't think the answer matters much to this discussion -they publish the Muzzle Velocity and the Muzzle Energy for both cartridges. The 124 gr has a LOT more power than the 147s, right? And the higher Velocity means better Barrier Penetration too, as I mentioned. If neither bullet is prone to over-penetration (I love Lucky Gunner's extensive ballistics test data!), you don't even need to worry over that. Since SD is likely to be at close ranges, as already mentioned, being worried about velocity loss and bullet-drop isn't even much consideration, unless you plan on visiting the food-court of an Indiana shopping-mall...😉
 
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Racer88, if you have the gold/yellow box those are several generations back. A good start is look for their black box generations. At the very least the stress cuts in the projectiles will be properly scored. Current Generation has flatter looking tops as I understand was required by the US Army. I'd be glad to post a picture tomorrow showing comparison of older to newest if forum by-laws permit.
 
I'd be glad to post a picture tomorrow showing comparison of older to newest if forum by-laws permit.

Of course. As long as they aren't "dick pics" (or equivalent)... we're good! LOL!

I'll have to look at my boxes. I think they are a tan color overall.
 
My question is: Do the HST 124-gr and 147-gr loads have the same powder charge?
I would say that the 124 grain has a higher charge. If you use the same charge the 147 Would exceed pressure limits.
 
Deal! Here are pics of the newest versions, .45 ACP with expanded round; 147gr and 127gr +p+ in 9mm. The 147gr (all 50 rounds) are contract over-run from a Canadian Law Enforcement Agency. Notice the .45 has a flatter looking top (folded barbs) than prior versions. Also, strange but glad the new 127gr +p+ has a larger hollow cavity.
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Deal! Here are pics of the newest versions, .45 ACP with expanded round; 147gr and 127gr +p+ in 9mm. The 147gr (all 50 rounds) are contract over-run from a Canadian Law Enforcement Agency. Notice the .45 has a flatter looking top (folded barbs) than prior versions. Also, strange but glad the new 127gr +p+ has a larger hollow cavity.

OK... Here ya go! What have I got? The "old" version? Or the "good stuff?" Bought in April 2011 for $32.95 a box.

Winchester-T-Series-127-+P+.jpg



I've got 1k rounds of .45-ACP 230-gr Ranger T +P sitting in my "inventory!"
 
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Those are several generations ago. Suggestion, if possible set up some jugs of water, even better make wet-pack (add newspaper to the water jug). Put a few rounds into them then put something like sweatshirt material over a few then shoot. If they fail to expand sounds like the rounds with shallow cuts. The hollow point cavity is also very small preventing sufficient fluid to enter to expand the round. Wind up with high velocity fmj.
"Well my my" (Lt. Joe Kenda :) I am envious of the .45s, the .45 rounds will do their jobs no question. :)
 
Those are several generations ago. Suggestion, if possible set up some jugs of water, even better make wet-pack (add newspaper to the water jug). Put a few rounds into them then put something like sweatshirt material over a few then shoot. If they fail to expand sounds like the rounds with shallow cuts. The hollow point cavity is also very small preventing sufficient fluid to enter to expand the round. Wind up with high velocity fmj.
"Well my my" (Lt. Joe Kenda :) I am envious of the .45s, the .45 rounds will do their jobs no question. :)

Unfortunately, I don't have a range available that would allow such tests.

In any case, I'm carrying the well-proven Federal HST 124-gr.
 
Until I moved to Mesa, Arizona I too had no where to evaluate SD ammunition. Met a nice old gentleman at an indoor one day. He told me about open desert shooting and some prime locations.
That is an excellent round for sure, I miss the contract overrun days, $14.00 a box of 50.

An idea, contact Winchester Olin, inquire about a warranty exchange.
 
I havent read EVERYONES reply so if already brought up do forgive.
We were not allowed 9mm for that reason- non expansion- inability to transfer energy upon impact. But also most hollowpoints at the time. Golden Sabre, BlackTalon were 2 I favored. I still have few 100 rds of both because of my experience with them. We also carried softpoint, wad/semi wad cutters and some cavity not so hard cast flatnose- company in South Carolina made them I believe. Which are NASTY on anything getting hit with them. 45cal to 3/4" on impact. Snicker -just evil. Like getting punched with a biscuit cutter- snicker.
Somewhere in early 90s they -gun an ammo, NRA I dont remember- did test with different clothing effects on different ammo. As I remember it denim, flannel, sweats etc all filled cavity of projectile and basically turned it into a round nose useless bullet. There were a couple with a large enough cavity that when shooting through barricades or clothing would produce a wadcutter. Big flat nose- thats a good thing.
So unless you shooting at naked bad guys expect them to fail.
A hunting license is cheap and alot of states allow hunting with 9mm. Id look at hunting ammo and do you own test. The result might surprise you.
If it will knock a hog off its feet, it will work.
Terminal velocity is different for different calibers and projectiles. 38special standard velocity personel defense rounds which produce good results. The math is the same, so it a flawed design not a lacking in speed. They can and some do produce projectiles that work at normal velocities. Ive never been a fan of +P etc.
 
Harry Truman Assassination Attempt. If you don't know about this you should. Do a little digging and you can find the Secret Service report and what they figured out about the agents seemingly poor marksmanship. Post WWII budget cuts had forced all federal agencies to make cuts. So SS agents trained and qualified with different ammo than what they carried on duty. IIRC In fact the some of the agents involved had qualified that very morning. The agents shot 38SP for training/quals and 357MAG for duty. Different bullet weights too.

I myself, being a reloader, shoot the same weight bullet with the same powder load as my SD ammo. I also avoid any bullet "with a name" like say "Critical Defense". I don't what some "wok" prosecutor who thinks I should be robbed/mugged/killed and just let it happen trying to use the name of a bullet trying to say I was just out to kill someone. Just HPs for me. And yea, I know, ammo is expensive. What's your life worth?

Rick
 
I also avoid any bullet "with a name" like say "Critical Defense". I don't what some "wok" prosecutor who thinks I should be robbed/mugged/killed and just let it happen trying to use the name of a bullet trying to say I was just out to kill someone. Just HPs for me. And yea, I know, ammo is expensive. What's your life worth?
Before ammo had designer names, the press and DA's with an agenda demonized ordinary HP ammo. Or really any ammo designed to expand. I can remember on the TV news, they called anything but RN "Dum-Dum" after the British arsenal in India by that name. That was the buzz word at the time. So focusing on an insignificant detail to sway juries about intent by ammo type goes back at least that far.
Back in the 70's, the Highway Patrol here was armed with S&W 357's, but issued 38 Special 158 RN lead bullet ammo. The least efficient round in that caliber. All to avoid bad press.

Winchester had "Black Talon" SD ammo years ago. I'm sure the Madison Ave. advertising agency that coined the term for them was well paid. Then the press focused on it. Sounded sensational on 60 Minutes.
Winchester renamed the ammo "Ranger" and left the black coating off, and then the press ignored it. Same ammo, but sounded mundane now.

But folks have forgotten that 38 SPL RN lead and 9mm FMJ ammo is a terrible stopper. It took multiple shots to stop a bad guy. That's why the Mozambique Drill was invented.

Bullet technology has advanced greatly in the last couple of decades. Use the best SD ammo available for carry, and saved the RN for practice.
 
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