The House passed the budget with the HPA!

[Peepsight]

From what I'm seeing the NRA, GOA and others had no problem with the Senate not including the whole shebang. Looks like a big nothing burger and a ley down by our supposed gun rights groups. May be time to leave the GOA, already left the NRA. Really disappointing, and I don't want any of the guns or suppressors in the bill. Just stinks for those that were hoping for relief.

 

[Racer88]

No, it's removing them from the NFA altogether. No registration, at least no registration as it is now. I believe that the background check and 4473 is a form of registration and an infringement, but it shouldn't be any more difficult or time consuming than buying any other firearm.

I don't think that's the case anymore. I believe they amended it to ONLY remove the $200 tax, while keeping the rest of the process the same / intact. So, there's still the Form 4 and the registration and all the restrictions it entails (such as transfers, etc).

So, in other words.... ZERO change from the perspective of Rights, and suppressors remain on the NFA list. So, again...

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Does anyone know what the no-stamp process will be? I can’t find this info anywhere.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

From what I'm seeing the NRA, GOA and others had no problem with the Senate not including the whole shebang. Looks like a big nothing burger and a ley down by our supposed gun rights groups. May be time to leave the GOA, already left the NRA. Really disappointing, and I don't want any of the guns or suppressors in the bill. Just stinks for those that were hoping for relief.

FPC sent a flaming email to members suggesting Congress rolled over, betrayed gun owners.

 

[Bobster]

IMPEACH THUNE--that fucking pussy!!! He could have fired the Parlimentarian and made the entire issue go away!

 

[Racer88]

So, can the House send it back to the Senate?


View: https://x.com/GunOwners/status/1940253016940322959

 

[no4mk1t]

So, can the House send it back to the Senate?


View: https://x.com/GunOwners/status/1940253016940322959

Yes.
It has gone back to the Senate for more fuckery. Sen Clyde has made an amendment to remove suppressors, SBR's, SBS's, AOW's from the NFA altogether. If by a miracle it makes it through unmolested, and Trump signs it, no more tax, no more registration, no more hassle crossing state lines, etc. They will be treated as regular firearms. So, 4473 at the time of purchase, and BG check.

What it will look like when it comes out the other end of the shit show is anybody's guess. Then it goes back to the House again.

There's going to have to be some serios holding of Rino feet to the fire for this to happen, so don't count your chickens yet.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Just thinking out loud here, if suppressors do get removed from the NFA, has there been any legislation (current or previous) that actually classified them as firearms? Or would they just become an accessory or part that wouldn't require a 4473/background check?

 

[FrankenGlock]

Just thinking out loud here, if suppressors do get removed from the NFA, has there been any legislation (current or previous) that actually classified them as firearms? Or would they just become an accessory or part that wouldn't require a 4473/background check?

From my understanding, they are classified as firearms and that was to protect them under the 2A.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Just thinking out loud here, if suppressors do get removed from the NFA, has there been any legislation (current or previous) that actually classified them as firearms? Or would they just become an accessory or part that wouldn't require a 4473/background check?

If eliminated from the NFA, you should be able to buy them over the counter - like a scope. We'll see.

 

[Racer88]

If eliminated from the NFA, you should be able to buy them over the counter - like a scope. We'll see.

If that happens, then.... "take my money!"

But I would find it "acceptable" if it only involved a 4473. But I'm not doing the Form 4 thing with registration.

 

[no4mk1t]

If that happens, then.... "take my money!"

But I would find it "acceptable" if it only involved a 4473. But I'm not doing the Form 4 thing with registration.

Something to think about:

How many FFL's that you have bought a firearm from have:
Gone out of business
Surrendered their FFL voluntarily
Have had their FFL revoked
A gun store like Dick's with two or more locations that has closed a store you bought a gun at

All those records, bound book, 4473's etc. all get shipped to ATF and are digitized into a searchable database. FOPA was short sighted when they prohibited dealer records from being put in a database. Thye failed to include FORMER dealer records and ATF has been happily scanning ever since.

So more than likely, you're in the database. May not be the NFA database, but there is going to be no difference if a future administration decides to infringe.

 

[Racer88]

Something to think about:

How many FFL's that you have bought a firearm from have:
Gone out of business
Surrendered their FFL voluntarily
Have had their FFL revoked
A gun store like Dick's with two or more locations that has closed a store you bought a gun at

All those records, bound book, 4473's etc. all get shipped to ATF and are digitized into a searchable database. FOPA was short sighted when they prohibited dealer records from being put in a database. Thye failed to include FORMER dealer records and ATF has been happily scanning ever since.

So more than likely, you're in the database. May not be the NFA database, but there is going to be no difference if a future administration decides to infringe.

I'm quite familiar... yet the argument falls dead for me. Apples and oranges. First... none of my FFLs have gone out of business... not that it matters, but you asked.

It's not just the database I'm worried about. There's a HUGE difference between a 4473 item in a database and an item REGISTERED in the NFA database.... AND what you can and can't do with each.

With a 4473 item, I can do as I please with it. I don't have to show a "stamp" upon demand. I don't have to have a stamp or documentation (permission) on me at the range like is the case with NFA items. I can dispose of it any way I choose. I can sell it. I can gift it. I can destroy it. I can keep it.

With an NFA item that is REGISTERED, I can do none of the above without permission. In fact, if I recall correctly, I can't even move it across state lines without double-secret permission. I can't just sell it or gift it. NFA items require a documented and PERMITTED "chain of custody" when it comes to transfers.

Nope... not interested, because there is a HUUUUUUUGE difference between a Form 4 item and a 4473 item.

 

[no4mk1t]

I'm quite familiar... yet the argument falls dead for me. Apples and oranges. First... none of my FFLs have gone out of business... not that it matters, but you asked.

Maybe not yet, but sooner or later some of them will.

It's not just the database I'm worried about. There's a HUGE difference between a 4473 item in a database and an item REGISTERED in the NFA database.... AND what you can and can't do with each.

With a 4473 item, I can do as I please with it. I don't have to show a "stamp" upon demand. I don't have to have a stamp or documentation (permission) on me at the range like is the case with NFA items. I can dispose of it any way I choose. I can sell it. I can gift it. I can destroy it. I can keep it.

I have never been asked to show the F4.
It is a tax document. Only ATF agents can demand you produce the form. Range Nazi RSO's and LEO's wouldn't know what they are looking at anyway. You just show them the form to make them go away.

With an NFA item that is REGISTERED, I can do none of the above without permission. In fact, if I recall correctly, I can't even move it across state lines without double-secret permission. I can't just sell it or gift it. NFA items require a documented and PERMITTED "chain of custody" when it comes to transfers.

Crossing state lines requires a 5320.20, but not for suppressors. Only MG, SBR's, and SBS's.

Nope... not interested, because there is a HUUUUUUUGE difference between a Form 4 item and a 4473 item.

The NFA registration is to prove the tax was paid. All this is 1930's era stuff that could be done electronically at the dealer level.

NFA still requires pics and prints. This is also from a bygone era before electronic databases that everyone is already in.
When you buy a firearm and the background check is performed, they already have your pic from your DL. The check is the same as when you buy an NFA item.

Point being that all the checks are the same. Submitting pics and prints is redundant. The F4 is only to prove the tax was paid, again, an analogue solution in a digital world. The entire NFA process could be performed by the dealer.

 

[brian]

Point being that all the checks are the same. Submitting pics and prints is redundant. The F4 is only to prove the tax was paid, again, an analogue solution in a digital world. The entire NFA process could be performed by the dealer.

The process has been updated to be able to be fairly electronic - I did an app in person with Silencer Central and they took electronic fingerprints and photo, I also created an account with the BATF&E with my info to have associated with the transfer. Unfortunately, the tax stamp received was also electronic (i.e. received via email). At least in the old days you literally got a postage like stamp on the form. Though the electronic one is harder to lose as you can create lots of copies.

 

[Bobster]

FYI from ATF.gov website...

Form 1 and Form 4:

 

[Racer88]

Only ATF agents can demand you produce the form

Yes.... and thanks for making my point. I don't have to produce SHIT for my normal firearms. So, again... comparing filling out a 4473 and a Form 4 are two ENTIRELY different animals.

Range Nazi RSO's and LEO's wouldn't know what they are looking at anyway. You just show them the form to make them go away.

Yeah... no interest in having to do that for an NFA item. I don't have to do any of that shit for firearms purchased via 4473 or even firearms purchased without a 4473... or even for firearms I built.

Again... night and day difference between the two things you are trying to equate.

Point being that all the checks are the same. Submitting pics and prints is redundant. The F4 is only to prove the tax was paid, again, an analogue solution in a digital world. The entire NFA process could be performed by the dealer.

NO. The checks are NOT the same. I don't have to submit pics and prints to purchase a regular gun. Are you kidding? Prints?? Certainly not in my state. And not a requirement for the federal 4473 form.

The Tax Stamp form (Form 4) must be PRESENT with the person possessing the NFA item. It's effectively a "permit." So, again... not the same thing as having filled out a 4473 for my factory Glock or FNH guns. There is no federal registry of ordinary firearms. Nor is there any registry in my state. I know some states have registration. But not mine.

On the other hand, there IS federal registration of NFA items. And you can't just give it to someone or sell it to someone... without going through proper transfer according to the federal registration protocol. Not doing that can result in some very VERY serious consequences. On the other hand, I can buy and sell or gift guns privately without any special permission.

I truly don't get how anyone can make this false equivalence with a straight face. They are completely different games.

Hey... I get that many people see no problems at all going through the Form 4 process for a suppressor or SBR. They think nothing of it. But we all have our "line in the sand." This is my line. I will not register ANYTHING. I will not beg permission to buy or sell or gift anything. I would rather not have a suppressor or SBR than deal with any of that. It's just not worth it to me. As they say, "Your mileage may vary."

Anytime someone sees my PS90, they invariably ask when I'm going to SBR it. "You HAVE to SBR a PS90! It just doesn't look right with that 16" barrel!" It's like it's sacrilege to have a PS90 with the non-NFA barrel. LOL! Nope! I have ZERO interest in doing that and turning my PS90 into a registered NFA gun. FUCK NO.

That's just me. I'm weird!

 

[Alex]

Weirdo!

If by some act of congress that thing becomes transferable via 4473 I am getting rid of it as soon as that option becomes possible. It is the dumbest gun I own, I rarely shoot it and can't think of any situation where I do not have a better option in my safe.
The only possible situation it might be worth keeping is if somehow machineguns also become legal. A P90 is a whole nother story compared to an SBRed PS90.

 

[Racer88]

Weirdo!
View attachment 33229
If by some act of congress that thing becomes transferable via 4473 I am getting rid of it as soon as that option becomes possible. It is the dumbest gun I own, I rarely shoot it and can't think of any situation where I do not have a better option in my safe.
The only possible situation it might be worth keeping is if somehow machineguns also become legal. A P90 is a whole nother story compared to an SBRed PS90.

 

[James Moore]

I don't think that's the case anymore. I believe they amended it to ONLY remove the $200 tax, while keeping the rest of the process the same / intact. So, there's still the Form 4 and the registration and all the restrictions it entails (such as transfers, etc).

So, in other words.... ZERO change from the perspective of Rights, and suppressors remain on the NFA list. So, again...

This is a new amendment from the house to remove them from NFA, after the Parliamentarian left them in the NFA and only reduced the tax to $0.