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Go to Reddit and you'll really get why they're needed. Those guys are flying blind... and without a net.
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- Thread starter no4mk1t
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Go to Reddit and you'll really get why they're needed. Those guys are flying blind... and without a net.
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Been to Reddit, the bullshit is ass deep to a tall Native American!
LOL! Can we say that??
It's flat out scary. A very different group. There are some good people there. But most of the new builders are truly flying blind. A lot of them sound like they've never owned any factory guns and don't know how guns work.
The Potatoes:
Ok ladies and gents, from a pure engineering perspective the old "more than one way to skin a cat" literally applies here. MGB put out a road map that covers 95-98% of a SAFE and accessible way for a home builder with sub par to average hobby skills, with average low cost tools, (and a tad bit of common sense) to build a really decent quality firearm.
Now that road map is no different than any other in that there are many more than one way to get to the destination. Some shorter or longer, some scenic or less so. We all have a base of what works, just different twists on what works better for each individual knowledge, skill level and actual tools available or in the budget to purchase. So no need to pooh pooh one specific approach, idea or person........ IF it gets the job done and YOUR good with it. That being said.....
The Meat:
I have had more than a few "what if" and "why that" conversations with Glenn at P80. In the beginning they suffered MANY warranty related calls and issues with using drill presses and hand drills both IN DRILLING ALL THE THROUGH FROM ONE SIDE (imagine that!). The Home Depot / Harbor Freight / insert other brand of home user drill press here, almost never comes out of the box "true".
They are sloppy / loose / wiggly and every other description you can concur. They are fine for poking a hole through a piece of plywood or thin steel stock for a screw or bolt hole to "stick something back together" but not for lining up precision holes and accurate spaced boring / reaming.
I have yet to help anyone set up and true a big box drill press that didn't require resetting the chuck (if not replacing) and tram the head and table, then the hole cheap trotline weight "drill press vise" and crappy .50 cent Aliee Express drill bit issue. Add the it's just plastic "ram & jam" out look some folks have and you end up with a call to tech support that goes like this. I drilled the holes in my "machine shop" on my press and nothing lines up...... your jig is defective....... are you going to send me a replacement frame????
It's a warranty CYA for P80! AND if you drill each side separately (kinda sorta square) it may not be "perfectly 90 deg." but it will work and it's repeatable. Tabs are the same, 50 different ways to do them.
The instructions work (if you read them... twice!), so does MGB's (if you follow them) as well as Racers & Duck's and pretty much most all of us here, for the ways that we have ADAPTED. Why??, "Enough common sense to fill a thimble" as Grand Mother used to say. My way..... I have literally done them with a hand reamer and X-acto knife at a off grid cabin that had no power all the way to chucking them up in my mill and push play while I start the Cerakoate prep on the other parts. Yep, lotsa ways to skin them cat's ;-)
Ok ladies and gents, from a pure engineering perspective the old "more than one way to skin a cat" literally applies here. MGB put out a road map that covers 95-98% of a SAFE and accessible way for a home builder with sub par to average hobby skills, with average low cost tools, (and a tad bit of common sense) to build a really decent quality firearm.
Now that road map is no different than any other in that there are many more than one way to get to the destination. Some shorter or longer, some scenic or less so. We all have a base of what works, just different twists on what works better for each individual knowledge, skill level and actual tools available or in the budget to purchase. So no need to pooh pooh one specific approach, idea or person........ IF it gets the job done and YOUR good with it. That being said.....
The Meat:
I have had more than a few "what if" and "why that" conversations with Glenn at P80. In the beginning they suffered MANY warranty related calls and issues with using drill presses and hand drills both IN DRILLING ALL THE THROUGH FROM ONE SIDE (imagine that!). The Home Depot / Harbor Freight / insert other brand of home user drill press here, almost never comes out of the box "true".
They are sloppy / loose / wiggly and every other description you can concur. They are fine for poking a hole through a piece of plywood or thin steel stock for a screw or bolt hole to "stick something back together" but not for lining up precision holes and accurate spaced boring / reaming.
I have yet to help anyone set up and true a big box drill press that didn't require resetting the chuck (if not replacing) and tram the head and table, then the hole cheap trotline weight "drill press vise" and crappy .50 cent Aliee Express drill bit issue. Add the it's just plastic "ram & jam" out look some folks have and you end up with a call to tech support that goes like this. I drilled the holes in my "machine shop" on my press and nothing lines up...... your jig is defective....... are you going to send me a replacement frame????
It's a warranty CYA for P80! AND if you drill each side separately (kinda sorta square) it may not be "perfectly 90 deg." but it will work and it's repeatable. Tabs are the same, 50 different ways to do them.
The instructions work (if you read them... twice!), so does MGB's (if you follow them) as well as Racers & Duck's and pretty much most all of us here, for the ways that we have ADAPTED. Why??, "Enough common sense to fill a thimble" as Grand Mother used to say. My way..... I have literally done them with a hand reamer and X-acto knife at a off grid cabin that had no power all the way to chucking them up in my mill and push play while I start the Cerakoate prep on the other parts. Yep, lotsa ways to skin them cat's ;-)
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I know this is almost a month old....but pls indulge me for a moment. MGB raised the bar and set standards. FTQ is a mindset....not all have to embrace that, but it's good wisdom. Again, I'm not driving my car around with the hood up but, well, you get the point. It all counts. Just where does the delta intersect on 'good enough' and FTQ? I suppose on what safely works and functions unimpaired. Function is #1 with me. Always. I don't care how purty it is, but DOES IT WORK CONSISTENTLY AND DEPENDABLY? Then the finishing is next. You can have something done beautifully, but done "off" and dysfunctional if you're not careful. That adage FTQ kinda makes my skin crawl. First time? Just how does that apply? Does that mean you can't go back and refine your work? How about just "Quality"?... but I digress.
Not in agreement with ALL MGB's advice that I have drawn my own conclusions with and by my own experience building many of these now. I don't use lubricant when I drill the pin holes on polymer frames, ever. IMO there is no point, as you are not only drilling polymer not metal, but also a shallow to nominal depth. I don't punch the bit through as we've seen MGB do either. I let the bit cut as it should.
And thirdly (and do keep in mind I have a construction background as well as much shop and automotive experience)....I have done ONE polymer frame with a dewalt hand drill out of all the one's I've done just to give it a try after about 5 builds and I'll never do another with a hand drill. I use, (gasp!) a table top drill press, I carefully align each jig hole to the bit before it gets drilled, one by one...AND I only drill from EACH SIDE and not clean-through; and I use a fresh bit on each build for sharpness sake (there's no reason not to unless they wobble as they are included in the kit). I've shared one bit between two frames before without consequence just as an experiment but I don't usually do that and it wasn't a problem but I wouldn't make that standard procedure......And they have turned out superb if I may say so, and far better than my hand-drilled frame. I then chase the holes carefully with a bit by-hand, de-burr and clean the holes, chamfer the outer holes where possible with a countersink, then install the pins by themselves to test fit before fully assembling. Then I test fit the components that will be anchored by those pins, and so forth. YMMV. Whatever works best for you.
Not in agreement with ALL MGB's advice that I have drawn my own conclusions with and by my own experience building many of these now. I don't use lubricant when I drill the pin holes on polymer frames, ever. IMO there is no point, as you are not only drilling polymer not metal, but also a shallow to nominal depth. I don't punch the bit through as we've seen MGB do either. I let the bit cut as it should.
And thirdly (and do keep in mind I have a construction background as well as much shop and automotive experience)....I have done ONE polymer frame with a dewalt hand drill out of all the one's I've done just to give it a try after about 5 builds and I'll never do another with a hand drill. I use, (gasp!) a table top drill press, I carefully align each jig hole to the bit before it gets drilled, one by one...AND I only drill from EACH SIDE and not clean-through; and I use a fresh bit on each build for sharpness sake (there's no reason not to unless they wobble as they are included in the kit). I've shared one bit between two frames before without consequence just as an experiment but I don't usually do that and it wasn't a problem but I wouldn't make that standard procedure......And they have turned out superb if I may say so, and far better than my hand-drilled frame. I then chase the holes carefully with a bit by-hand, de-burr and clean the holes, chamfer the outer holes where possible with a countersink, then install the pins by themselves to test fit before fully assembling. Then I test fit the components that will be anchored by those pins, and so forth. YMMV. Whatever works best for you.
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An aphorism I learned from my Dad.... "I don't argue with success."
If it works, it works. "If it's been done before, then it's possible."
That all said, I do believe that smoothly finished and polished surfaces work better in a mechanical device. Plus, for me, there is that pride in workmanship. Is it absolutely necessary (for function)? Maybe not. But, I can also honestly claim that my very first build has fired perfectly... without a single malfunction... from the first shot to the 1,800th (so far).
Then we see posts on reddit that ask, "Why won't my slide cycle?"
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I don't have an issue with perfection. I do get being put off with the FTQ commentary in the videos as I have felt it as well. My issue/concern is that rarely is someone able to do something perfectly the first time. MGBs tips can put you on the short track do doing things well, but that doesn't mean you'll wield the tools the way they need to be. Not only will you get better with repetition, but you'll also try it different ways and figure out what works for you, especially if you aren't experienced with performing tool work with your hands (like I am not). I've definitely gone back and tweaked my first builds. I just dropped a Glock OEM connector into a build that had a heavy trigger pull using a Rocky Brass connector. I'm also hoping that I start to learn enough that things work flawless out of the gate hence the latest build using the Dremel workstation to drill holes. Well, that and using Glock OEM parts
I've seen even worst posts on Reddit than @Racer88 references. Those aren't directly what make my skin crawl. Not that someone made a mistake, but at how half-assed some people approach a build. I am a firm supporter of the right to bear arms. As such, I don't appreciate when people do stupid things with firearms. Watching a video post of some kid jump around flinging his P80 in all directions after "accidentally" shooting full auto isn't what this is all about to me. Flawless operation of the build is part of FTQ, beyond that so are the safety aspects.
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FWIW, I'm a perfectionist have have been accused of having OCD more than once...so pls don't misunderstand what I'm saying. If it's worth doing at all, it's worth doing RIGHT the first time. You won't get any argument from me here about smoothly finished surfaces!! And our slides rack like buttah!!
Here's an under the hood pic of my SC...I really need to get some of those little rubber polishing bits for the small details, but anyway there it is. Runs flawlessly....actually they all seem to, except my unproven PF940C build you've seen but I haven't been back to the range since the little medical speedbump I'm recovering from, and having cimpleted that project about 6 weeks ago but it hasn't been test-fired yet. Maybe next week, after the next heat wave here wanes...here's the (ultra accurate and consistent) SC frame:
Here's an under the hood pic of my SC...I really need to get some of those little rubber polishing bits for the small details, but anyway there it is. Runs flawlessly....actually they all seem to, except my unproven PF940C build you've seen but I haven't been back to the range since the little medical speedbump I'm recovering from, and having cimpleted that project about 6 weeks ago but it hasn't been test-fired yet. Maybe next week, after the next heat wave here wanes...here's the (ultra accurate and consistent) SC frame:
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UGGH!!!! THE CARNAGE!!! I can't UNSEE that!! I'll see your carnage pics, Racer and raise you this:An aphorism I learned from my Dad.... "I don't argue with success."
If it works, it works. "If it's been done before, then it's possible."
That all said, I do believe that smoothly finished and polished surfaces work better in a mechanical device. Plus, for me, there is that pride in workmanship. Is it absolutely necessary (for function)? Maybe not. But, I can also honestly claim that my very first build has fired perfectly... without a single malfunction... from the first shot to the 1,800th (so far).
Then we see posts on reddit that ask, "Why won't my slide cycle?"
View attachment 5313 View attachment 5314
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Ok so maybe I went too far. I repent in sackcloth & ashes..
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Nice 2 c u Tree ! Hope u are well.
So, the 650 bit shown in the photo at the start of this thread was bought in the 80's and was getting kinda dull. I ordered a new one and used it on my last two builds with the burnt bronze slides. What a difference! It buzzed off those tabs in seconds!
Being this was my first black frame, and I've seen where peeps are using various techniques to blacken where the tab used to be. It seems if it's snipped off with fret cutters, it leaves a white mark. With the 650 bit, it leaves the tab area a little dull, but it's still black. After I had everything smoothed out like I wanted, I used a gray Cratex cylinder on the tab area. It brought the shine back to where you could barely tell it from the untouched part of the frame. Use low speed, a light touch, and keep it in constant motion so you don't make a divot in your nice smooth rail. Works equally well in the channel. I did not use water, but will try it on the next one to see if it adds anything.
Dremel used to sell these, but they are no longer on their website. These are a bit coarser (120 grit) than the green bits from Amazon.
Just found some on ebay. Going to order some as I only have one more left. These are great for polishing feed ramps.
Dremel 427 Rubber Polishing Points Cylinder + Mandrel (coarse grit) | eBay (comes with mandrel)
Being this was my first black frame, and I've seen where peeps are using various techniques to blacken where the tab used to be. It seems if it's snipped off with fret cutters, it leaves a white mark. With the 650 bit, it leaves the tab area a little dull, but it's still black. After I had everything smoothed out like I wanted, I used a gray Cratex cylinder on the tab area. It brought the shine back to where you could barely tell it from the untouched part of the frame. Use low speed, a light touch, and keep it in constant motion so you don't make a divot in your nice smooth rail. Works equally well in the channel. I did not use water, but will try it on the next one to see if it adds anything.
Dremel used to sell these, but they are no longer on their website. These are a bit coarser (120 grit) than the green bits from Amazon.
Just found some on ebay. Going to order some as I only have one more left. These are great for polishing feed ramps.
Dremel 427 Rubber Polishing Points Cylinder + Mandrel (coarse grit) | eBay (comes with mandrel)
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In everything posted here and discussed- a little pride of workmanship, patience, and common-sense go a long ways to creating a nice result. For me, the whole "drill-press is verboten" is a nothingburger BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING WITH IT. I've worked with many different metals, acrylics and other plastics. You don't go ape with the drill press, and just hog into it. Use some sense and finesse. You let the bit do the work it was designed to do, for the material you are drilling, and at the correct speed.
That goes for hand drilling as well for that matter. That being said, never once have I had a problem with the outcome of using a drill press for my pin holes on our frames. Other people who don't have any kind of background in materials such as these aren't so educated to use the system correctly....but I can't see those same people doing better with a hand drill, either. YMMV. I guess P80 had to draw the line somewhere in their instructions, for a very broad base of consumers. (shrugs)
That goes for hand drilling as well for that matter. That being said, never once have I had a problem with the outcome of using a drill press for my pin holes on our frames. Other people who don't have any kind of background in materials such as these aren't so educated to use the system correctly....but I can't see those same people doing better with a hand drill, either. YMMV. I guess P80 had to draw the line somewhere in their instructions, for a very broad base of consumers. (shrugs)
So, the G26 award kit arrived today and building commenced.
Here's the tabs after cutting, but before any sanding. The little piece at the back is where the jig prevents the bit from removing that last little bit.
After sanding. Let's make that white chalkiness go away with a little Cratex magic.
After. You can barely tell there was a tab there.
Michele's etching is a custom touch. Very nicely done.
Waiting for magazines and sights to finish it.
Here's the tabs after cutting, but before any sanding. The little piece at the back is where the jig prevents the bit from removing that last little bit.
After sanding. Let's make that white chalkiness go away with a little Cratex magic.
After. You can barely tell there was a tab there.
Michele's etching is a custom touch. Very nicely done.
Waiting for magazines and sights to finish it.
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Still working on finishing up my first G26 (need to drop test). I had the same problem. I was using the dremel with router bit and though it was some nuance with clearance between the dremel and the jig? Curious to know what you used. It was an easy cleanup but made me pause for a moment wondering if I overlooked something.
Used one of these for the file work.
Amazon product ASIN B07YC4MV3C
View: https://www.amazon.com/Double-Buffering-Professional-Manicure-Pedicure/dp/B07YC4MV3C/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=34S5L6XVT9X5P&keywords=foam+nail+file+boards&qid=1661244928&sprefix=foam+nail+file+boards%2Caps%2C196&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1
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Sorry, was more asking what you used for the initial tab removal such that the "tail" at the back was left. Prior post said "cut" so I wasn't sure if you used the fret cutters or ?
I believe he used the cutter shown in the OP:
And the tool running into the jig is what resulted in the little lip at the far end of the tab.
Dremel #650 router bit. Amazon has them.
Amazon product ASIN B00004UDIL
View: https://www.amazon.com/Dremel-650-8-Inch-Straight-Routing/dp/B00004UDIL/ref=asc_df_B00004UDIL/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312003160272&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2103071408621948305&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1027028&hvtargid=pla-437293180927&psc=1