Does anyone carry one of their builds?

[Racer88]

So, if you get pulled over in a traffic stop, a younger officer is likely to flip out on you, where as one with more experience is likely to ignore who manufactured the firearm you a legally carrying.

How would the officer know you are carrying (anything) at all in the case of a traffic stop? There is no duty to inform in PA. (I just looked it up.)

Like "assault rifle", "gun" is a political term latched onto by a willing and compliant media to scare the shit out of an ignorant public. As distasteful as the scare tactic is, it is obviously effective with a public so willing to be influenced by fear.

True.

That is what you would face if a case was brought against you for any reason... that your legal firearm was somehow illegal and a threat to society. That is the jury you will face, like it or not.

Please cite one case where the jury AND JUDGE have ignored the LAW and convicted and sentenced a person without regard to the legality of the use of lethal force in self-defense. In other words, they completely ignored the Five Elements and convicted based on the TYPE of weapon.

I'll wait.

So, for the moment, I do not carry the home-made firearms off my own property.

Why would you carry a PMF on your property (presumably for defensive purposes) considering your concerns mentioned above? The laws are exactly the same. And the (very) hypothetical concerns about the jury's views on PMFs wouldn't change, eh? What is the difference between on your property vs off?

I understand that the prosecution would try to leverage the jury's ignorance and emotions. But I do not believe that using a LEGAL PMF in LEGALLY-JUSTIFIABLE self-defense would be the sole factor in a conviction. Yes, it will be brought up. But it would be EASILY refuted by the defense, especially in the context of a totally justifiable use of force in self-defense.

That all said... my EDC is a P80... and yes, I "built" it. But I did use a serialized frame to "hedge my bets." But even though it's serialized, I'm sure they'd STILL try to paint it as a "gun." You better believe they would..... because they'll try anything.

If it's not a PMF, they'll use your participation on a gun forum to paint you in a bad light. They'll try ANYTHING to paint you in a bad light.

But would they WIN a conviction based ONLY on that? No way, IMO.

 

[clm2112]

How would the officer know you are carrying (anything) at all in the case of a traffic stop? There is no duty to inform in PA. (I just looked it up.)

Your license plate.

In PA, the county sheriff administers the concealed carry permit system. Moreover, The PA State Police administer the background checks on purchase of handguns, in addition to the NICS system. There is presently a bill in the state house to expand that to the transfer of long guns too.

So, you get pulled over, the officer is going to know that the owner of the vehicle has a carry permit. Now, if he or she has reason to compel you to exit the vehicle, they are going to get the gun off you. You may not even be the suspect they are looking for. Hell, one afternoon I got stopped three time on I-4 and had my car searched on once. I wasn't the green camaro they were looking for, I just happened to come through at the wrong time. To their credit, the officers from Longwood, Orlando, and FHP were cool about it and apologized for pulling me over.

Now, you do what you want. I'll pass on being the test case to see just how reasonable the jury is going to be. I don't need to cite a case for your benefit. You get prosecuted, that is punishment enough even if you are found not guilty at a jury trial.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I should have explained that the guy I mentioned was literally getting in peoples faces, intimidating them. Especially the women. Wife beater type. I politely asked the foreman to reign the guy in a couple of times and he didn't have the balls. I don't go looking for fights but this guy was one of those people who desperately needed to get his ass kicked. As with most bullies, he was a sissy boy acting like a tough guy. All hat and no cattle as they say.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I don't know about PA, but in NC if you have a carry permit, the cop is likely to be informed of that when he runs your drivers license. This is pretty common. Its been years since I was stopped for a traffic violation but when I have I tell the deputy that I am licensed to carry a firearm in the state of <wherever I was living at the time> .

Regarding the ramifications of using a firearm you made yourself on your own property vs. elsewhere, I don't think it matters. If you are involved in a shooting, it really doesn't matter where it is. You can of course defend your 'castle' legally in most states, but even when you do prosecutors have a lot of latitude in making a case against you... declaring you wanted to shoot someone, purposely made an untraceable gun, or modified your gun or ammo to be more lethal. If a gun hating ADA wants to make a name for him/herself, they can and will go there.

This is one of the main reasons I never modify the trigger on a carry gun.

 

[clm2112]

Why would you carry a PMF on your property (presumably for defensive purposes) considering your concerns mentioned above? The laws are exactly the same. And the (very) hypothetical concerns about the jury's views on PMFs wouldn't change, eh? What is the difference between on your property vs off?

You presumption is wrong in that respect. My home made creations make trips up to the shooting range on my own property. With the exception of popping a racoon a few days ago with a P80, none of the home-made firearms get used for any activity beyond punching paper. The ones I carry for self-defense, even on the farm, are commercially made.

 

[Racer88]

Your license plate.

In PA, the county sheriff administers the concealed carry permit system. Moreover, The PA State Police administer the background checks on purchase of handguns, in addition to the NICS system. There is presently a bill in the state house to expand that to the transfer of long guns too.

So, you get pulled over, the officer is going to know that the owner of the vehicle has a carry permit. Now, if he or she has reason to compel you to exit the vehicle, they are going to get the gun off you. You may not even be the suspect they are looking for. Hell, one afternoon I got stopped three time on I-4 and had my car searched on once. I wasn't the green camaro they were looking for, I just happened to come through at the wrong time. To their credit, the officers from Longwood, Orlando, and FHP were cool about it and apologized for pulling me over.

Now, you do what you want. I'll pass on being the test case to see just how reasonable the jury is going to be. I don't need to cite a case for your benefit. You get prosecuted, that is punishment enough even if you are found not guilty at a jury trial.

In Florida they don't know. CCW is run by the Department of Agriculture. So CCW is not connected to your license or plate.

A "test case" implies an ambiguity or "gray area" in the law. What is the "gray area" here? If self-defense was legally justifiable... and the laws are quite clear on that... the end.

Again, I understand the prosecution will TRY to paint the self-defendant in a bad light and influence the jury thusly. And I understand that juries are impressionable... and are picked on that very basis. But I would enjoy hearing about any case where the TYPE of LEGAL weapon used was the determinant in a guilty outcome despite the other factors (5 Elements) being satisfied and proven.

 

[Racer88]

Something that comes to mind... In states that do not have a duty to inform... and recently passed "Constitutional Carry" in the form of permit-less concealed carry... Will officers now begin routinely ASKING if you are carrying a weapon? And if so, do you THEN have to inform?

 

[brian]

And if so, do you THEN have to inform?

In Ohio you do need to inform if asked:

Ohio’s “Constitutional Carry” Law: Context, Clarification, and Considerations

Though failure to do so got downgraded to a second-degree misdemeanor as part of the Const. Carry law.

"However, effective June 13, that burden will shift to law enforcement. The new language of O.R.C. § 2923.12(B)(1) only requires a person with a concealed handgun to disclose the existence of the firearm to one officer during a stop.[39] Further, a person does not need to notify an officer until the officer first specifically asks about the presence of a concealed handgun.[40] If no officer performing the stop inquires about a concealed firearm, then the person being stopped need not disclose any information about their weapon."
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"Effective June 13, refusal to disclose a concealed handgun during a stop if an officer asks about concealed firearms will be a second-degree misdemeanor and will not cause the person’s concealed carry license to be suspended."

 

[Racer88]

In Ohio you do need to inform if asked:

Ohio’s “Constitutional Carry” Law: Context, Clarification, and Considerations

Though failure to do so got downgraded to a second-degree misdemeanor as part of the Const. Carry law.

"However, effective June 13, that burden will shift to law enforcement. The new language of O.R.C. § 2923.12(B)(1) only requires a person with a concealed handgun to disclose the existence of the firearm to one officer during a stop.[39] Further, a person does not need to notify an officer until the officer first specifically asks about the presence of a concealed handgun.[40] If no officer performing the stop inquires about a concealed firearm, then the person being stopped need not disclose any information about their weapon."
.
.
.
"Effective June 13, refusal to disclose a concealed handgun during a stop if an officer asks about concealed firearms will be a second-degree misdemeanor and will not cause the person’s concealed carry license to be suspended."

Right. I know in a lot of states, IF ASKED... THEN you have to disclose your CCW status. Whereas some other states, you are required to volunteer that information even if not asked.

I've only been pulled over a few times in my life, and it's been many years since the last time. I've never been asked. And I've never volunteered my CCW status.

I wonder if LEOs will routinely ask now.

 

[Racer88]

So, you get pulled over, the officer is going to know that the owner of the vehicle has a carry permit. Now, if he or she has reason to compel you to exit the vehicle, they are going to get the gun off you. You may not even be the suspect they are looking for. Hell, one afternoon I got stopped three time on I-4 and had my car searched on once. I wasn't the green camaro they were looking for, I just happened to come through at the wrong time. To their credit, the officers from Longwood, Orlando, and FHP were cool about it and apologized for pulling me over

I'm confused and curious about this situation.... because we switched from PA to FL. In PA they know if you are CCW by your license. But that's not true in FL. Did you volunteer that you were carrying at this stop in FL?

Did they ask to search your car? You consented?

 

[JCinPA]

@Racer88 In post #21, with all due respect, you are setting up a Straw Man Argument.

Nobody here argued that anyone would get convicted solely on the fact a PMF was used.

I changed my mind upon reflecting on my own comments about Soros-funded DAs and Bongo Lewi's comments about juries (love the HOA analogy ). With DAs looking to let criminals off and prosecute those who defend against them, and with the idea about stupid juries, I decided whether it is, in fact, relevant to the case or not, why give them anything to use against you. I don't think anyone would get convicted solely because they used a PMF, but these days victims and defenders are targeted by DAs rather than the criminals, and in liberal blue cities like Philadelphia, Chicago, San Franshitshow, Portland, etcetera, why give them the (using it as an example) the "gun" media clown show it would create.

It's just not worth it. I'll go with my G26. With it's modifications. Not my P80. YMMV, of course.

 

[Racer88]

I decided whether it is, in fact, relevant to the case or not, why give them anything to use against you.

Of course. And of course, no matter how hard we try to avoid that... there will be SOMETHING they will TRY to use against us... Such as firearms-related social media participation. Or, "Why does he have SO MANY guns? Or so much ammo?"

"He posted a photo of himself with the deer he killed on Facebook! He's obviously a murderous sociopath!"

"Rambo shot Bambi!"

I submit that eliminating all potential "emotionally incriminating" factors is a Sisyphean Task.
I just wanted to use that term in a sentence!

And I ask (sincerely)... Has ANY of that ever worked in favor of the prosecution, superseding the LEGAL facts justifying the use of lethal force in self-defense? I know they do it. I know they're going to do it. But does it WORK? Has anyone who OTHERWISE would be not guilty on the basis of the "Five Elements" (as described by eminent attorney Andrew Branca) been convicted based on these emotional factors?

I don't think anyone would get convicted solely because they used a PMF, but these days victims and defenders are targeted by DAs rather than the criminals, and in liberal blue cities like Philadelphia, Chicago, San Franshitshow, Portland, etcetera, why give them the (using it as an example) the "gun" media clown show it would create.

I get it. And even I decided to go with a serialized frame for my CCW build for that very reason. My point, I guess, is that I think we worry too much about things that are out of our hands in any case. Obviously, those of us who take self-protection seriously have weighed that priority over the possibility of being wrongfully convicted. ie... "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

It's just not worth it. I'll go with my G26. With it's modifications. Not my P80. YMMV, of course.

Can't argue with that. When I started building, I said that I would never carry one for self-defense or use for home defense. I've got plenty of factory serialized guns that would serve that purpose. And I pretty much stand by that... even though I still don't believe it's an issue, because the OTHER more important legal factors will supersede that emotional tidbit that it was a "ghost."

I carried a G27 for many years. But then I decided to go UP in size and DOWN in caliber. Thanks to the Eli Dicken incident... and the subsequent "Dicken Drill."

The Glock Model 19 fit the bill. I already had one, actually. A Gen 2 G19. But I also wanted to go with an optic. And there was nothing in the form of a factory GLOCK G19 that checked all the boxes for me. So I decided to build one, but hedge my "legal bets" with a serialized frame, purchased with a NICS check through an FFL.

So, in PRACTICE, I actually agree with you. But I also believe that using a PMF in self-defense is not the scary issue we imagine it to be. Academically, so to speak, I think we overstate the implications of PMFs.

 

[Alpa Chino]

And at Alpha Chino, don’t know what about Soros sticks in your craw, but his supported DAs, universally across the country,

Bro, that’s right wingnut paranoia.
What’s next, you’re going to tell me documents were planted?
That it doesn’t bother you the Koch brothers determine who runs?
That a billionaire has owned a Supreme Court judge for the last 20 years?
Whose wife pushes her own agenda because of her connections?
And you’re worried about Soros?

 

[Racer88]

Bro, that’s right wingnut paranoia.
What’s next, you’re going to tell me documents were planted?
That it doesn’t bother you the Koch brothers determine who runs?
That a billionaire has owned a Supreme Court judge for the last 20 years?
Whose wife pushes her own agenda because of her connections?
And you’re worried about Soros?

We could be worried about all the above, eh? Mentioning Soros does not necessarily imply he isn't worried about the conflicts of interest you mentioned.

Or are you suggesting that Soros has not influenced politics or the selection of judges at all? Didn't he also pretty much single-handedly fund the "Mothers Demand Action" (snort) anti-gun group?

In any case... we should probably start a new thread on this topic, if we're going to go down that rabbit hole.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Check this out:

Cop's AR-15 Dust Cover Inscription Used Against Him in Court - The Truth About Guns

Completely crazy.

In my professional and personal life, I always leaned very heavily on being the so-called gray man. I don't want to be noticed or make any statements by way of my actions, words, firearms I carry or own, or even the clothes I wear.

 

[Racer88]

Check this out:

Cop's AR-15 Dust Cover Inscription Used Against Him in Court - The Truth About Guns

Completely crazy.

In my professional and personal life, I always leaned very heavily on being the so-called gray man. I don't want to be noticed or make any statements by way of my actions, words, firearms I carry or own, or even the clothes I wear.

Yep. Familiar with that case. It was "used against him." OK... no surprise there. It sure doesn't "look good." But did that, alone, make or break the case? The answer, logically, is NO. There were other circumstances that made the shoot look VERY bad. The subject was on his hands and knees when shot. THAT'S what started... and may end.... the case for the defendant. The rifle inscription is just "icing on that bad cake."

That said... would I have such an inscription on MY defensive weapon? NOPE.

 

[Alpa Chino]

Freedom of Expression- doesn’t mean it’s wise to do so.
Even the ammo choice can mean a problem in court.

 

[Racer88]

Freedom of Expression- doesn’t mean it’s wise to do so.
Even the ammo choice can mean a problem in court.

So you're saying I should get rid of my "Black Zombie Dead-Right-There Talon Reaper" ammo?

 

[Racer88]

Check this out:

Cop's AR-15 Dust Cover Inscription Used Against Him in Court - The Truth About Guns

Completely crazy.

In my professional and personal life, I always leaned very heavily on being the so-called gray man. I don't want to be noticed or make any statements by way of my actions, words, firearms I carry or own, or even the clothes I wear.

<<<On December 7, 2017, after a six-week trial, a jury acquitted Brailsford of all charges.[8]>>>

Shooting of Daniel Shaver - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Alpa Chino]

So you're saying I should get rid of my "Black Zombie Dead-Right-There Talon Reaper" ammo?

Well….I think it was Ayoob (again) who recommended choosing the same ammo as your local law enforcement uses.
So when a prosecutor tries to spear you for your choice to carry hollow points your lawyer has something to argue.
Just me and my opinion but carrying stuff like this is stupid in my opinion