Polymer80 may survive the court battle but not their own reputation....

[Racer88]

But Palmetto Armory seems to be doing well selling clone Glock parts and Glock clones.

The Dagger is a cheaper substitute for a factory Glock. P80s are not a substitute for Glocks.

Their somewhat new Micro Dagger complete gun and frames sell out in an hour. Every day. I've been watching it out of curiosity for two months. Somebody is buying those frames.

See above. I think they're mostly selling complete Dagger guns rather than stripped frames. Without a doubt, either way, they are a good value.

I dont buy the argument that nobody will "build" a gun on a serialized frame. However, I openly admit that I also have questioned the logic in doing this. My main objection is the cost of doing that doesn't pass my sniff test.

Didn't say "nobody." But I've been pretty active in the online building community for almost 3 years. Absolutely, the VAST majority are NOT interested in building a serialized 100% frame. Vast, vast, VAST majority.

 

[James Moore]

I dont buy the argument that nobody will "build" a gun on a serialized frame.

I don't recall anyone saying that nobody will build a gun on a serialized frame. I have and at least a few in this forum have. I'm in other forums and see, Daggers, SCTs, PF9s, Timberwolves, and plenty of different 1911s.

Polymer80 built their company on 80% and are fighting to stay an mostly 80% company. They've spent millions of dollars in legal fees fighting that battle.

I sure that you think the best thing to do in that situation is to tuck tail and run, but thankfully, that's apparently not their go to response.
They and others in the fight have won many battles.

People of your ilk can't see it and are hoping for a different outcome, but the battle is nearly won and I think Polymer80 will be around for quite a while.

 

[Racer88]

People of your ilk can't see it and are hoping for a different outcome, but the battle is nearly won and I think Polymer80 will be around for quite a while.

I think he's just new to this facet of the firearms hobby / community, so not as aware of the target market and the reality of its proclivity for 80% unserialized frames.

 

[James Moore]

I think he's just new to this facet of the firearms hobby / community, so not as aware of the target market and the reality of its proclivity for 80% unserialized frames.

I was referring to his profferring the Libtard argument in this thread and others, that law abiding citizens should have their rights infringed because of the acts of others.

 

[Racer88]

P80 is probably dead meat.

That's speculation on your part, based on very little information. None of us really knows what's going on behind the scenes.

But (effectively) rooting against them isn't going to win friends on a forum that is dedicated to that particular facet of the hobby, eh?

I’ll be happy to compare resumes and credentials if you want to go there.

Puhleeze, folks. Let's keep it civil. It's not a dick-measuring contest.

I was in the pool!

 

[Knack]

The Dagger is a cheaper substitute for a factory Glock. P80s are not a substitute for Glocks.


See above. I think they're mostly selling complete Dagger guns rather than stripped frames. Without a doubt, either way, they are a good value.


Didn't say "nobody." But I've been pretty active in the online building community for almost 3 years. Absolutely, the VAST majority are NOT interested in building a serialized 100% frame. Vast, vast, VAST majority.

I don’t see a huge difference. Palmetto seems to sell a lot of parts as well as complete guns. I don’t think anybody has or can get the data on this subject one way or the other.

Getting back to the size of the market for 80%, if the D&B revenue numbers for P80 are true it’s a very small market. Also rather disintermediated. Some buyers just want a different grip, some enjoy the frame prep and assembly as a hobby or outlet. Others may like the untraceable aspect. Some all three. But it’s a very small club. And the main supplier probably does not have the financial means to weather the political and legal storm.

If sales tank because nobody wants serialized frames as suggested by some here, they will be shutting the doors in a very short time.

Going down swinging has no place in business. I think the founders leaving and the son of one taking over was the death knell. This is a very common story. Companies often gain popularity as startups and rally a lot of excitement and enthusiasm. But then they go bust. Most of them. It’s always a management failure. Bad decisions, running out of money, or both.

People find it hard to separate their emotions or political beliefs from basic business fundamentals. Business leaders who do that end up roadkill. Especially if they swim in risky waters. When in a rip current, swim sideways or drown. How’s that for a mixed metaphor?

 

[Knack]

I was referring to his profferring the Libtard argument in this thread and others, that law abiding citizens should have their rights infringed because of the acts of others.

The last refuge of a dumb ass is name calling

 

[Racer88]

I don’t see a huge difference.

No doubt about that.

Some buyers just want a different grip, some enjoy the frame prep and assembly as a hobby or outlet. Others may like the untraceable aspect. Some all three. But it’s a very small club.

Yes. It's definitely a small club in the context of the firearms hobby overall.

One could say the same thing about a variety of products in the gun world (or any other hobby). The number of people willing to spend $1500 on a Colt Python is also quite small in the spectrum of gun owners, eh? Even smaller for Korth revolvers which cost multiples of the Colt Python. So??

And the main supplier probably does not have the financial means to weather the political and legal storm.

Maybe. Maybe not. None of us know that. But you seem to be quite confident in your abilities to divine what is happening behind the scenes. Do you work for Polymer80? Do you have inside information? Or, instead, is it a matter of attempted schadenfreude by openly and seemingly GLEEFULLY predicting the demise of the biggest supplier of product to a forum with over 2000 P80 FANS???

Going down swinging has no place in business. I think the founders leaving and the son of one taking over was the death knell. This is a very common story. Companies often gain popularity as startups and rally a lot of excitement and enthusiasm. But then they go bust. Most of them. It’s always a management failure. Bad decisions, running out of money, or both.

See above. You are reveling in this prediction of doom for the hobby, which is the primary focus of this forum. At least that's the appearance you are offering here. Your "insight" based on your "resume" is not going to win friends, especially when you overtly ENJOY predicting doom and gloom for the hobby and then disparage those who actually know what the fuck they're talking about when it comes to this particular subject.

You should bone up on the cases currently working their way up the ladder to the SCOTUS. It's actually looking quite good for our 2A Rights. You're apparently not only new to building, but new to firearms in general. My friendly and unsolicited advice (worth what you paid for it): You'd do well to sit back just a bit, as there are some folks here with many decades of experience in this realm. The fight for the 2A is hardly new... and it will never ever be over.

Polymer80 may or may not survive. I don't pretend to know. I have more concerns about their customer service being lacking than the legal challenges, as explained in the OP. But I take no pleasure, as you seem to, in their predicament.

I DO believe that the hobby will survive. And I mean the non-serialized partially-finished frames or blanks being finished and built by hobbyists. We will also have 3D printing and milling. "Can't stop the signal," as they say. Americans have been building their own guns since the nation was founded, and they'll be building guns until the end of this nation or the end of time.

 

[Racer88]

Time for me to hit the rack. Work tomorrow.

You boys behave!

 

[Knack]

Revel? Projecting. I'm not a reveler. I am also not an ostrich. The facts are what they are. One thing is certain, we are all going to soon witness the end of this drama, whatever it turns out to be. I agree the hobby doesn't disappear. I didn't say it would. Someone else did, if serial numbers are mandated. I don't agree.

Kelley himself said: Putting serial numbers on his frames would not hurt his business. That's a direct quote. He went on to say be believes that doing so infringes on the 4th Amendment right to privacy. Which is odd. Search and seizure is a bit of a stretch. Most guns have serial numbers. Other than people who are breaking the law, where is each and seizure happening at scale? Answer: Nowhere.

Court documents state P80 sold 52,000 "items" in 2020. That implies frames, jigs, and frame parts. ARs and handguns. So the annual revenue I mentioned seems to align with that. It must be less now, given the mandate/restrictions. Turns out there are numerous lawsuits. Not just the Feds. Mostly state and local governments piling on.

Sorry to go against the grain but a purpose built pistol frame or AR15 lower is not a ham sandwich. I think that's how the courts are going to ultimately rule. Serial numbers are likely to be mandated. Abuse of those serial numbers and infringement is a completely separate legal issue. That's not a libtard opinion. It's a logical opinion.

 

[Racer88]

The facts are what they are. One thing is certain, we are all going to soon witness the end of this drama, whatever it turns out to be. I agree the hobby doesn't disappear. I didn't say it would. Someone else did, if serial numbers are mandated. I don't agree.

Only YOU know the "facts," eh? Bwahahahahaha!

Kelley himself said: Putting serial numbers on his frames would not hurt his business. That's a direct quote.

It IS hurting his business, right fucking NOW. How many on this forum have purchased the "bridge" / "76%" frames? A mere handful. How many have purchased serialized 100% frames? Even fewer.

That's a direct quote. He went on to say be believes that doing so infringes on the 4th Amendment right to privacy. Which is odd. Search and seizure is a bit of a stretch.

There are those who argue that serial numbers + background checks = a form of registration.
And INVARIABLY, registration leads to confiscation. One might also argue it's a violation of the 5th Amendment, too. Of course, there is also that pesky 2nd Amendment.

Most guns have serial numbers. Other than people who are breaking the law, where is each and seizure happening at scale? Answer: Nowhere.

Non sequitur.

Sorry to go against the grain but a purpose built pistol frame or AR15 lower is not a ham sandwich. I think that's how the courts are going to ultimately rule. Serial numbers are likely to be mandated.

Nope. A federal court JUST ruled that the law against removing serial numbers is unconstitutional.

Abuse of those serial numbers and infringement is a completely separate legal issue. That's not a libtard opinion. It's a logical opinion.

Keep it up. In my experience, liberals HATE being called liberals. I've literally never met a liberal who will admit to being a liberal. They always try to deflect by claiming to be "independent" or "neutral." Hardly! By contrast, every conservative I've met is proud of that label.

If not liberal, then BIG TIME "Fudd." If you are willing to give up part of your Rights.... well, you know the rest. At this point, your purpose here is dubious.

And, yes... you are absolutely reveling in your predictions of the demise of P80. Your comments ooze a smugness about it, too. Still.

 

[Knack]

Whatever. No skin off my ass. I assure you I could care less about Polymer 80's future status. I tried it. I'm underwhelmed.

I've already decided to concentrate my efforts on 3D printing skills. That's where the builders are. Bye.

 

[James Moore]

I've already decided to concentrate my efforts on 3D printing skills. That's where the builders are.

Great. We need more supporters of "The 3D Printed Gun Safety Act" over there, because we all know that Kids, Kriminals, and Kooks are buying printers and churning out untraceable firearms.

 

[James Moore]

Most guns have serial numbers.

Wow, you're catching on, but still being new to the hobby you can't grasp that those serial numbers are the result of the 1st major infringement on our 2nd amendment rights, the GCA.

 

[Racer88]

Whatever. No skin off my ass. I assure you I could care less about Polymer 80's future status. I tried it. I'm underwhelmed.

I've already decided to concentrate my efforts on 3D printing skills. That's where the builders are. Bye.

3D printing is intriguing. My only "objection" is the durability / strength limitations (currently).

I am more interested in 3D milling. That way a billet block of either polymer or metal offers a more homogeneous / stronger / more durable foundation.

I think it's fine that you're underwhelmed with the outcome of a P80 project. It ain't for everyone.

But the fatalistic prognostications about our Rights won't land well in this community. We are not ones to compromise Rights or acquiesce. So, when someone comes around and taunts us with "You'll see! Your favorite thing is going away! That's just the facts! I'm really smart!" Well... you should expect some push-back on that.

 

[bkbrno]

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0e/6e/ce/0e6ece8b4bd5b130cfb70f36a3e8c00e--brand-new.jpg

I find it interesting that some come here looking for build advice, then after awhile start bashing the whole idea of the 80% market. I'm not a conspiracy person but I can't ignore what was labeled a conspiracy 3 years ago, turned out to be the truth. The last 3 years have a track record of Feds inserting themselves into situations and stirring the pot.

Manufacturers and the ATF have been playing Whack-A-Mole for decades and decades. AK flats, US parts counts, imported parts kits, definition of a flash hider vs. muzzle brake, jigs, templates, CAD files, survivalist build manuals, I could go on. The game is well rehearsed, played and repeated. Pick something, demonize it, ban it. Litigate the shit out of it and bankrupt anyone who dares to challenge it.

Does a serial number mean anything when identifying a weapon? To a forensic examiner, it is a little powdered sugar sprinkled on a donut. Sweet and tasty but has very little to do with matching that weapon with that crime. If you believe the media, the gun spits out its' serial number at every crime scene and flags the owner with a gigantic flashing red light over their head leading cops directly to them. PMFs are turning up at crime scenes for sure. When the ATF has to include guns with altered serial numbers in the catagory to get the numbers up, you know the fix is in. Altering or trying to remove a serial number is a thing criminals have done since guns have had serial numbers. It's in their playbook. Lots of them do it because all the criminal buddies did it for the last 50 years.

I'm positive that my bank willingly turns over my credit card records if asked. Whoever looks at these things can probably guess +- one or two, how many of these I've made based on parts I've purchased. There are no restrictions on records like that, not that matters much to the ATF. Not much I can do about it and I knew exactly how easy it would be to get this information if somebody wanted it. They can see them if they want to and have the proper documents. When I'm done with them and have had my fun, I'll probably destroy them Iike I did the AK I built 20 years ago. It was fun to build but in the end, the factory made, serialized, purchased through an FFL AK proved more reliable and trustworthy. I've already started this process. I bought a serialized Dagger thru an FFL and transfered parts over to it from my first and worst P80. I think I'll toss the frame in my chipper to make sure it doesn't show up somewhere I don't want it to. I will probably get a serialized P80 because I like the grip angle and looks way more than I like a Glock.

What does all this have to do with P80? The ATF and legal system are in the process of whacking their head down. We have to watch it play out. Do they have a plan to survive? Don't know but this field is littered with companies bankrupted by the "Man".

 

[Peepsight]

One tid bit on 3d printing. I know 0 on how to, but talking to my chiropractor who is a gun nut like us, he built a 3d printed AR he tells me but the first shot destroyed it. So that little bit of info tells me it's not as easy as it sounds. Just like building a gun doesn't take 30 minutes.

 

[A229]

This thread is really weeding out all the non-believers. I just can't wrap my head around why people join this forum and then attack what it stands for without any meaningful facts to back up their claims. Then they seem to get baffled when their pitiful arguments are ripped apart.

In the end it always comes down to insulting us as builders.

It is the equivalent of walking into a bee farm and repeatedly smacking a beehive with a bat without any sort of protection and then getting upset that you got stung.

What is wrong with these people?

 

[Bobster]

My thoughts in no particular order...

Abuse of those serial numbers and infringement is a completely separate legal issue.

I would not be surprised if we find out the Bidet ATF has been digitalizing millions upon millions of 4473s in storage the past three years. Think of the juicy, searchable database that (is) would create(ing)... Don't forget the gov't has thousands of lawyers and prosecutors at its disposal to fight against such "constitutional" abuse lawsuits that might arise. And like Cunter's laptop, once the info is out there it IS out there forever.

There are those who argue that serial numbers + background checks = a form of registration.
And INVARIABLY, registration leads to confiscation. One might also argue it's a violation of the 5th Amendment, too. Of course, there is also that pesky 2nd Amendment.

I agree with this. BUT we are not yet near the point of confiscation as many LEOs have ZERO desire to participate in raiding gunowners (1) because they wish to uphold the Constitution and (2) because they wish to self-preservate...
Plus, there is rampant non-compliance by normal, honest citizens (such as in IL). An unjust law is not a law...

Great. We need more supporters of "The 3D Printed Gun Safety Act" over there, because we all know that Kids, Kriminals, and Kooks are buying printers and churning out untraceable firearms.

I'd be more concerned the tracing of the files used to program the printer. Patriots in other countries are arming themselves with 3D guns. This is just a random search I clipped.

3D printing is intriguing. My only "objection" is the durability / strength limitations (currently).

If you haven't joined the Fosscad sub-reddit you should. I haven't been there in a few months but there is a lot of "experimentors" doing their thing and posting their findings.

Manufacturers and the ATF have been playing Whack-A-Mole for decades and decades. AK flats, US parts counts, imported parts kits, definition of a flash hider vs. muzzle brake, jigs, templates, CAD files, survivalist build manuals, I could go on. The game is well rehearsed, played and repeated. Pick something, demonize it, ban it. Litigate the shit out of it and bankrupt anyone who dares to challenge it.

Yup...

Does a serial number mean anything when identifying a weapon?

See my post about digitalizing 4473s above. That list, if it exists will creating overflowing of ponds and lakes due to "boating accidents"... As a student of Forensic Science, a gun serial number trace with the ATF is not an investigative tool but more a prosecutorial tool.

I'm positive that my bank willingly turns over my credit card records if asked.

I will venture that many gun companies will provide the gov't with any customer info they want if subpoenaed. THAT is the slippery slope that will lead to confiscation. They will start with "Joe's Gun Shop" that bought 10k 80% kits (for example) and work their way down the list...

One tid bit on 3d printing. I know 0 on how to, but talking to my chiropractor who is a gun nut like us, he built a 3d printed AR he tells me but the first shot destroyed it. So that little bit of info tells me it's not as easy as it sounds. Just like building a gun doesn't take 30 minutes.

See my search link and check out fosscad...

In the end it always comes down to insulting us as builders.

I don't think anyone intends to insult but more merely debate. Then it seems like the bullies come out next and many here gang up on them. Civility will go a long way for our cause even you don't agree with everything someone says...

 

[bkbrno]

This thread is really weeding out all the non-believers. I just can't wrap my head around why people join this forum and then attack what it stands for without any meaningful facts to back up their claims.

Find and entrap people doing illegal things?
Throw some "facts" at the group to sow some doubt and maybe deter a few from building?
Gather information should these PMFs become illegal?

I haven't caught on to even a hint of illegal activity here. There have been a few that bought their parts before their locality banned these things. Usually, previously owned stuff is grandfathered. Don't know.

When things don't pan out the way their boss wanted it to, they pick up their ball and storm off. I've never been to Reddit but it seems like the IQ is a lot lower there. There would be a better chance of catching illegal activity on Reddit than here.

I have a 3D printer and have printed some useful household items and toys for the kids. The strength and durability are not there yet for me to put my handsome mug behind a barely contained small explosion with heavy moving parts. You guys and gals go first.