Polymer80 may survive the court battle but not their own reputation....

[RagnoROOK]

@Hyvmax sure seems like a cat fishing fed to me. I sure as hell don’t believe one word they’ve said.
Welcome to the forum, fed.

I should say that you could truly be the genius manufacturer that you claim, or you could just be posting photos you found on the web and engaging in 2A “stolen valor” — either way, I’d just as soon not touch you with a 10ft pole, based on the radioactive personality and opinions you’re spewing.

 

[Hvymax]

@Hyvmax sure seems like a cat fishing fed to me. I sure as hell don’t believe one word they’ve said.
Welcome to the forum, fed.

Back at ya keyboard commander.

 

[Hvymax]

What really sucks is that since Maryland essentially banned 80% kits incidences of pmf's turning up in crimes has fallen over 50% in my county alone. We're compiling all of this for the upcoming Legislative Season because we can't just get up in front of Senate and House Committees and say Nuh Uh. How the crap am I supposed to reply to that if it comes up in any of the new bills???

 

[Racer88]

incidences of pmf's turning up in crimes has fallen over 50% in my county alone.

I'm calling bullshit on that until you have references or citations. To my knowledge, there is ZERO data on PMFs used in crime. Only "guns," which are nebulously defined and include (by design) factory guns with serial numbers defaced.

Nowhere in the country are there any numbers on actual PMFs as a distinct data point, separated from factory guns with serial numbers ground off. And, of course, there's a reason for a lack of transparency on that.

Show me the data.

 

[Hvymax]

Here's the data from my county alone on weekly police interactions usually resulting in arrest involving 1-3 PMF's. 2022 overall average 9. End of 2nd quarter 2023 average 7. End of 4th quarter 4-5. 1st week 2024 was 3.

 

[Hvymax]

That's inside baseball numbers the state 2A organizations will be going by if it comes up.

 

[seniormoment]

We have attracted either a liberal, a member of the Bidenobama administration, or a Fedboi.

 

[RagnoROOK]

Fed or fudd, either way your posts indicate “provocateur.”

 

[Hvymax]

No I'm going to be testifying in front of my State Legislature and would look really stupid if I didn't have this information available if it comes up. I have been fighting these for decades

 

[Knack]

Well, this sure is interesting. Like I mentioned recently, I think I showed up in the 4th quarter with 15 seconds on the clock.

View: https://media.giphy.com/media/tHvxNSQ9c1Hbi/giphy.gif

 

[Racer88]

Here's the data from my county alone on weekly police interactions usually resulting in arrest involving 1-3 PMF's. 2022 overall average 9. End of 2nd quarter 2023 average 7. End of 4th quarter 4-5. 1st week 2024 was 3.

That's not data. Sorry. That's confusing anecdotes. Show me the ACTUAL data and who collected it and how. Also the definitions used for the types of firearms. Then for context, what are the total crime guns for the same period as to give a percentage value to the PMFs?

So, let's say they collected XX PMFs (not "guns") used in crimes in 2023. But they collected X,XXX factory guns used in crimes (including those with defaced serial #s or separate those out. But don't conflate PMFs with defaced factory guns). So, now we can calculate the percentage of crimes involving guns that specifically involve PMFs.

1 to 3 PMFs in the entire year of 2022? Average of 9? What does that mean? Average number per day? Per year? Per month? End of 4th quarter is "4 - 5???" LOL! A range of numbers rather than a solid number? The quoted above is not a clearly articulated set of data.

It means nothing to a scientist or statistician. Nope. Sorry. No kewpie doll for you. That's a hilariously poor example of "data."

Again... it's a matter of scientific curiosity. Though, from a constitutional / legal perspective, it's utterly immaterial to our Constitutionally-protected Rights. Our ability to exercise our Rights is not contingent upon the behavior of criminals. Deal with the criminals, and leave the lawful and peaceful citizens alone with their Rights intact and uninfringed.

 

[brian]

Here's the data from my county alone on weekly police interactions usually resulting in arrest involving 1-3 PMF's. 2022 overall average 9. End of 2nd quarter 2023 average 7. End of 4th quarter 4-5. 1st week 2024 was 3.

Does the data include information about why the person was stopped and what the charges were? What I am wondering is are these folks are otherwise law-abiding and stopped for something minor like a traffic violation and arrested because they have the PMF or are these gang bangers involved in a shoot out that got caught with a PMF?

To @Racer88 question, these stats should be reviewed along with arrest information for serialized guns as well as for serialized guns which have had the SN removed. If stats are not being kept for SN removed, then that could be a point to bring up to the legislature - the need to track such data. In addition to the "reason for arrest" I asked above, if PMF arrests are down 50% in 2024 but arrests involving serialized weapons are similarly down, then one would argue arrests went down vs a law against PMFs having anything to do with it.

 

[Racer88]

Does the data include information about why the person was stopped and what the charges were? What I am wondering is are these folks are otherwise law-abiding and stopped for something minor like a traffic violation and arrested because they have the PMF or are these gang bangers involved in a shoot out that got caught with a PMF?

these stats should be reviewed along with arrest information for serialized guns as well as for serialized guns which have had the SN removed. If stats are not being kept for SN removed, then that could be a point to bring up to the legislature - the need to track such data.

I have not seen ANY reports or data that distinguish PMFs from defaced / de-serialized factory guns. There's a reason for that. It allows the anti-2A faction to INFLATE the numbers by using a nebulous term like "guns."

 

[seniormoment]

No I'm going to be testifying in front of my State Legislature and would look really stupid if I didn't have this information available if it comes up. I have been fighting these for decades

Can you guys come up with a compromise on this, you both have valid points. I was concerned when vendors came up with these “buy, build and shoot” kits. Seemed like anyone with access to a credit card could purchase one. Yes, it does take a level of skill to assemble a functional weapon, but nothing near what are forefathers had to do to construct theirs. They don't have to be ftq to be deadly and don’t think that these “nodogooders” can’t build one. They have access to the same information we have.
I never understood how the term “80%” came about, seems like 99% compared to what earlier craftsman had to deal with.
As we have seen with this administration rights don’t mean $#!+ to them. So we need to come together and work something out. What that would be I don’t know.

 

[Racer88]

Yes, it does take a level of skill to assemble a functional weapon, but nothing near what are forefathers had to do to construct theirs.

It's also a lot easier today to use your Free Speech Rights.... with the click of a mouse I can publish my speech to millions of people across the interwebz. Back in the days of the Founders, it was quill and parchment and then later a very primitive printing press. And distributed at best on horseback.

So what? The Constitution was not written in the context of the available technology. Our Rights exist regardless of the technology.

This is no different than the vacuous "muskets" argument.

They don't have to be ftq to be deadly and don’t think that these “nodogooders” can’t build one. They have access to the same information we have.

Again... so what? They also have access to the same Free Speech Rights. They are free to speak and publish their thoughts, no matter what those thoughts are or how abhorrent they may be. Prior Restraint of speech or any other constitutionally-protected Right is... well... unconstitutional.

I never understood how the term “80%” came about, seems like 99% compared to what earlier craftsman had to deal with.

Marketing and the alphabet agency definition of what constitutes a firearm.

So we need to come together and work something out. What that would be I don’t know.

No. We don't. And can't. They don't want to compromise. There IS no compromise. Either you have a Right (to keep and bear arms) or you don't. Same as Free Speech. There is no Prior Restraint of Free Speech. There are no pre-conditions imposed on ANY of our other Rights.

Their goal is singular: Take our guns. Yep. That's their ultimate goal. They've said it outright, and we should believe them. Accordingly, we cannot give up even an inch. NOT. ONE. INCH. If we do, they'll just move the goalposts and take it to the next level, asking us to "compromise" AGAIN.

And the same is true for the 1st Amendment, 4th Amendment, 8th Amendment, 14th Amendment, and so on. Our Rights are binary and absolute.

If you don't like the Constitution, then AMEND it. There is a process for that. Fucking do it! Be warned... it's not easy... by design. But you cannot bend the definitions on the fly to accommodate your social and political agendas.

 

[Hvymax]

Does the data include information about why the person was stopped and what the charges were? What I am wondering is are these folks are otherwise law-abiding and stopped for something minor like a traffic violation and arrested because they have the PMF or are these gang bangers involved in a shoot out that got caught with a PMF?

To @Racer88 question, these stats should be reviewed along with arrest information for serialized guns as well as for serialized guns which have had the SN removed. If stats are not being kept for SN removed, then that could be a point to bring up to the legislature - the need to track such data. In addition to the "reason for arrest" I asked above, if PMF arrests are down 50% in 2024 but arrests involving serialized weapons are similarly down, then one would argue arrests went down vs a law against PMFs having anything to do with it.

Probably 60+ percent traffic stops with drugs and PMF's. This is data directly from the publicly available police blotter. Quite a few were kids in school with them. Some armed robberies etc. Compiled by people in the state 2A organizations in preparation for the upcoming Legislative Session. I know just cover your head and scream la la la all you want. I doubt these will come up this year because they pretty thoroughly banned these from the state to the point that nobody is going to touch them commercially. I could technically go out of state and get one and would have 30days from completion to get it engraved and logged by an FFL. You guys are delusional if you think no ineligible people were making these with criminal intent. I know Muh Rites won't be Infringed!!! Try that in Court.

 

[Hvymax]

Can you guys come up with a compromise on this, you both have valid points. I was concerned when vendors came up with these “buy, build and shoot” kits. Seemed like anyone with access to a credit card could purchase one. Yes, it does take a level of skill to assemble a functional weapon, but nothing near what are forefathers had to do to construct theirs. They don't have to be ftq to be deadly and don’t think that these “nodogooders” can’t build one. They have access to the same information we have.
I never understood how the term “80%” came about, seems like 99% compared to what earlier craftsman had to deal with.
As we have seen with this administration rights don’t mean $#!+ to them. So we need to come together and work something out. What that would be I don’t know.

"I" can't come up with anything. The Bolshevik Terrorists in my State Legislature are the ones writing the bills. Me and my State 2A organizations show up every year to make the case that the rights of law abiding citizens shouldn't be Infringed while their policy is that they're not locking up any more of the Usual Suspects and someone else has to pay for their crimes. That's the real word some of us live in.

 

[Racer88]

You guys are delusional if you think no ineligible people were making these with criminal intent.

Straw Man argument. Never said nor implied that. I'm asking for the DATA that proves PMFs are disproportionately (predominantly) involved in crime.

I'm asking because I already know the answer. The answer is: You can't answer that question. And the folks you are HELPING (with your corroborating emotionally-based "testimony") to disarm American citizens can't answer the question HONESTLY, either. They have combined PMFs and criminally-defaced / de-serialized factory guns to INFLATE the number of so-called "guns" as the new "public menace."

It's a lie, and you're corroborating that lie by agreeing with it and without actual statistical or factual basis.
Without a doubt some bad actors are making PMFs. Go to the reddit group, and you'll find some. Though, the honest folks there usually ferret them out. But in the end, bad actors / criminals indulging in weapons building has NO BEARING on whether I should be able to indulge in my hobby peacefully and legally.

The fact that you are actually (perhaps unwittingly) HELPING the anti-2A movement by AGREEING with their disingenuous claims is sad and disappointing. At best, you are 2-faced... a "Fudd," as they say. We don't want that kind of "help," honestly.

It is irrational to suggest that limits should be placed on law-abiding peaceful productive Americans because of the behavior of criminals. And that is exactly what you are suggesting... over and over. That is abundantly clear at this point. It's anathema to the very notion of Freedom.

It doesn't matter if one in a million criminals use a PMF or 10,000 in a million criminals do it. I don't fucking care! They are CRIMINALS. Punish THEM, not me. I will not stand for it. I will not compromise even a millimeter. If there is a problem, then address those people causing the problem.

That all said... you live in Maryland, so citizens there are fucked. Nothing new.

 

[CECannonJr]

And now.....I don't take it back. I'm leaning heavily towards Fedboi.

 

[Hvymax]

I never said that they were predominantly involved in crime. They are substantially involved in crime. I live in a semi rural/suburban county. I'm sure if I compiled statewide data there would be over 1,000. In a perfect world it would have no effect on our Rights but that's not what we have. America as intended ceased somewhere in the last 60 years. Only a Moral and Educated Population can be trusted with Rights. Living in Maryland I agree that anyone who would elect Democrats is incapable of being trusted with Rights at all. The Human Termites are flooding into the Conservative States and most are hanging by a thread. With the Southern Border situation we have less than 2 years till the Majority flips and it's Game Over America.
You want a freaking Builder!!! My jigs have hundreds each. My Build parties were the biggest. I've helped and enabled hundreds of people with their builds. I've fought tooth and nail for our rights in the Legislatures and on the streets.