SAFETY WARNING! Freedom Wolf Rails Can Come Loose!

[One Ping Only]

Superglue, baking soda and graphite (pencil lead) Frame will break before that stuff comes apart.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5O2aYKhxgMY

I just LOVE Michele’s lab experiments! Hehe

Seriously, that’s an awesome tip for these frames.

 

[USApat]

I use denatured alcohol in the shop and that is usually MY go-to for a solvent. Blown off quickly with compressed air. It is also less potentially CNS-damaging than MEK, thinners or acetone. At any rate, I don't like using solvents on plastics if I can avoid it.

I particularly don't want this to happen...

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I would agree with this. Alcohol is my preferred cleaning method for a lot of things.

I will add that I have done a few JB Weld repairs lately including a couple of holes in a car body that was pierced (not rusted). Brushing up on the TDS stuff for JB Weld and looking up what chemicals it's compatible with and I learned that you specifically don't want to use alcohol to clean the area before applying JB Weld to bond a surface. Apparently it may affect the bonding. I looked it up to see if it was compatible with body fillers and other solvent based chemicals used to prep for painting.

My hunch is that they say this because some folks may not allow the alcohol to dry and evaporate, but that's pretty hard to do with alcohol because it evaporates pretty darn quick. Not as fast as Acetone, but right behind it.

 

[Polymer 80 addict]

SAFETY WARNING! Freedom Wolf Rails Can Come Loose!

I was planning on using this frame for an upcoming steel shoot. While looking it over, I noticed one of the rails had come loose! Initial correspondance with Lone Wolf and they are like "just glue it back on!" I took great pride and care putting it together with plenty of time to dry. And the Loctite glue recommended is almost $30 for .1oz!

I replied back with something to the effect of "How many people have been hit in the face with a slide from this issue?" And some other potentially sour notes. I'd be OK with a credit to get a serialized frame from them at a discount but I don't think that is happening ("we don't swap unserialized frames")...

So what do you all think? I'll update with any good news but I'm thinking this will be my last purchase from Lone Wolf...

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That's some shady crap on their part. You might've got really lucky. I too wonder how many people their products have injured.

 

[Bobster]

UPDATE 07/17/23:

I thought I should update this post as Lone Wolf Arms provided proper satisfaction and customer service to me. I can't and won't guarantee anyone else will encounter the same level of service, but you could probably expect it.

As an aside, I've been a LW customer for a number of years, having bought this frame plug for my Gen3 G30 back in 2008.



As described in my "Cereal-ized" thread, LW sent me a serialized TWC3 frame to replace the Freedom Wolf compact 80% frame purchased during a BF 2021 sales event. I also purchased a necessary "frame completion kit" at that time. You can find their parts kits at this LINK. They no longer sell Freedom Wolf (80%) frames but do sell different size serialized frames with or without parts kits.

The total for the FW back then was $122.50 to my door. (this was before FL decided to start collecting sales tax on internet purchases... ) Update to today and add to that $10 for the transfer ($40/4), ~$218 for the PSA slide delivered, another $15 for the mag and the gun stands me about $366 not including labor. Let's say it took me at least an hour to build/troubleshoot it at my min. shop rate of $120/hr and soon you realize an 80% is far from a "deal". Contrast that with the fact you can get a brand-new base Dagger compact for $300+ and you soon realize we aren't building 80% guns to SAVE money or to create a "throwaway" gun. But since we like spending each other's money, I would recommend getting the Dagger "deal" they offer with optics cut slide, 10 mags and case for $400.

As shown in the pics, the frames are nearly identical. Pics are flash and non-flash. A few minutes to swap the parts over and we're now back in business. The new frame came with a curved backstrap which I installed. It also came with a little "square" that was installed where the locking block goes and removed during assembly. The 80% came with the same "extras". This is a Gen3/Gen4 G-19 size frame. Comes with a flat backstrap, I installed the curved. Also has a pinned-in magwell that functions well but impedes on pinky space (at least for me it does). Has a removable spacer in the dust cover for Gen4 slides. Gen4 parts are the mag release and rear trigger block so you kind of have to get LW's parts kit. I'm not sure if the LW block is the same as a Gen4 block but it does come with a "built-in" trigger travel limiting screw and wrench. Back then, I ended up having to use OEM Gen3 Glock parts in the FW but with their block (Gen3 doesn't fit) to get proper trigger function.
Fired a couple mags at the range and the new frame seemed to be working well. I need to get a better rear sight tool so I can replace the skyscrapers with some tritiums.



Here are some other misc pics of the box...



A little OT but since melty plastic was mentioned, I noticed my shop TV remote had a Rayovac battery (DO NOT BUY!*) that had melted down. I'm usually pretty good about removing batts from unused devices (I use the Roku remote with this TV), but this one was overlooked. Gave it a little spritz with Brakleen Red to clean the corrosion off the spring and noticed the plastic getting soft! Quickly blew it off with compressed air before it caused too much damage but it did damage it a little... Although Brakleen Red has many uses such as killing wasps and pepper spray substitute , cleaning plastic probably should not be one of them and I should have known better. I had a can of electronics cleaner right next to it...



* regarding Rayovacs, I bought a couple few bulk containers of AAs and AAAs a few years back during BF sales. They sat on the shelf inside, climate-controlled for maybe 6-8 months until I needed one. Unfortunately, I found them melted down inside the NEW, UNOPENED package. Rvac said they would give me a total of $15 back keeping in mind I probably have $30-$40 into them. I've been having good luck with HF "orange" batts for the past few years and Rvac lost a customer for life...

 

[bapegg]

Did you let the frame sit for a full 48 hours after gluing the rails in place?

Letting the adhesive cure for a full 48 hours is very important!

I have built several Freedom Wolf frames and have never had any issues with the rails. The first frame I built was for a G44 22LR slide. I shot the snot out of that build and got the slide and barrel hot enough that I got a third degree burn on my finger from touching the barrel. I did at least 8 mag dumps as fast as I could with the 18 round ProMag magazines. The rails never came loose.

 

[bapegg]

I forgot to add that I did the same test with my second Freedom Wolf frame and a Gen. 5 G19 MOS slide and again no issues with the rails.

 

[Bobster]

Did you let the frame sit for a full 48 hours after gluing the rails in place?

Yup. I had some pics of the process but they were lost in a hard drive crash. The frame was gently clamped in a vise to make sure nothing slipped out of place as it dried.

I put pliers on the other rails and gave a gentle pull and twist and they are not loose at all. The replacement frame has been working good, probably 50 rounds or so through it so far...

 

[Bobster]

UPDATE: so I had the FW frame advertised "AS-IS" needing the rail re-glued on a local guntrader website for $100 firm. Had a guy hot on the hook, seemed legit, local town public works guy. Was "going to pick it up but had to work late" a few days in a row. I don't chase buyers and I told him once the ad ended later that week, I was going to keep and fix the frame. That was a couple months ago and yet another item on my "list" of things that need doin'...

My dot's BF has Prime so I had him get the glue for me: $16? + sales tax, I gave him a $20. I will note that you get your money's worth--the bottle was filled to the brim! I had the glue in a day.

To refresh your memory, the rail came loose due to a glue failure. Lone Wolf graciously sent me a serialized TWC3 frame gratis "under warranty". Since I was doing a number of transfers at the time, the FFL only charged me $10. The TWC3 is identical to the Freedom Wolf frame and is a Glock 19 Gen4 style. It will also take a Gen3 slide with included dust cover spacer. The TWC3 is currently sitting in my son's glove box with a Dagger DLC black non-RDS slide on it.

I cleaned the old glue off best I could and scored and scuffed the pieces so the new supersuperglue could adhere better. I'm going to let it dry a couple days while I round up parts. I have a P80 940SC rail I think will fit and work if I can find it. Should have everything else to put it together. (maybe) Then I will test it with the Shitmos slide--that ought to stress it. I think I still have some .40 reloads left...

 

[Bobster]

UPDATE 2: Ended up temporarily swapping the trigger parts/block/PSA non-RDS DLC slide off the TWC3 into the FW to test the "fix" to the rail. I had swapped the OE LW trigger back into the TWC3 (w/3.5 connector) and it seemed to be functioning fine (I think ) after a tweak . But back in the FW it proceeded to malfy. That was the LAST range session where I had intended to test the rail fix. I got about 10rds through it before I called it done.

Since I had a Glock Precision Trigger NIB I figured I would put it in the FW temporarily to try it out. Although the GPT came with a Gen5 back plate, I put the Glock armorer's plate on this particular slide for testing and until I can get a replacement BP. This particular PSA back plate was EXTREMELY difficult to get off so I'm calling it defective. The GPT will not be staying in this frame as may be used as a LATSOAC gun... Don't want to be throwing away good money after bad!

So today, after Public Day at my range (I'm a RSO), I tested a few guns, the FW being the only one to pass its test. The rail seems to be staying in place as are the other ones. I ordered a new billet block for the DaggerWolf and I'll take its block and trigger and put it in the TWC3 and I'll put the OE glock trigger that was in the TWC into this frame. I have another PSA slide waiting for a home.



One reason I didn't do more testing is because I get bored of just shooting a gun for function. It is more fun to let someone else do the shooting while improving their marksmanship. I'm not saying it is necessarily a "chore" but the party a dozen feet away asked if I wanted to "go cold" so I could set up targets and I'm like "No, but thank you! I'm just function testing. There is a target remnant I can aim at..." I'll do more testing once I get all the parts situated in the guns they will end up in.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I don't want to carry or even shoot a gun that's glued together. That's just me. Same reason I don't eat at Taco Bell. It's not food. Might as well eat bugs.

On the other hand, there's an adage that everyone should carry three guns. The second for backup and the third you put in the dead guy's hand. A "glued gun" would be OK for that. Throwaway. Like the Liberator.

 

[Racer88]

I don't want to carry or even shoot a gun that's glued together.

There are cars with glued / bonded chassis (rather than welded). The tensile and shear strength of the adhered pieces exceeds the cohesive strength of the metal itself.

But, I'd have the same reservations with the gun in question here.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

True. Lotus did this eons ago. A car using that technology is designed for that purpose. The frame is not the same as a conventional welded or bolted together assembly. A failure is not going to send metal into my face or blow my fingers off. Think of it this way: If someone needed a pacemaker to stay alive, who would opt for the cheap knock off?

Modern boats, other things we use every day also use adhesives. I'm not challenging the value of glue. As we know, polymer gun makers predominately use pins to secure metal parts to plastic. There's a reason. Adhesive is certainly cheaper. So why haven't adhesives been widely adopted? In the cheap gun realm, I'd buy a HighPoint and call it a day.

 

[Racer88]

True. Lotus did this eons ago. A car using that technology is designed for that purpose.

Yep. The red stuff is "glue!"

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Yep. The red stuff is "glue!"

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Combined with lots of bolts and rivets! I read someplace that modern aircraft use a combination of adhesives and fasteners. The adhesive mitigates the tendency of rivets to work loose over time. Also strengthens the joint when dissimilar materials come together. Like metal, ceramics, and carbon fiber or similar plastics.

The space shuttle Columbia heat shield tiles were glued on. It was known there was damage on liftoff and tiles fell off. Somebody decided... nah... it'll be OK. Probably a NASA accountant. We will never know if one of the engineers said this could be catastrophic on re-entry.

I wonder how many times can you stress a gun frame with glued-in rails before the slide violently hits you in the face. My guess is some engineer at Glock or others knows the answer to that question.

 

[Racer88]

Also strengthens the joint when dissimilar materials come together. Like metal, ceramics, and carbon fiber or similar plastics.

Except deep submersibles. That didn't work out too well. Gosh, who knew that carbon fiber sucks when it comes to compressive and shear strengths? Who would have thought that a carbon fiber CYLINDER would crumble at 12,000 feet under the sea like an empty beer can on Bluto Blutarsky's forehead at a Delta House party?

Even.... this guy knew that.

It was known there was damage on liftoff and tiles fell off. Somebody decided... nah... it'll be OK. Probably a NASA accountant.

Oops.

I wonder how many times can you stress a gun frame with glued-in rails before the slide violently hits you in the face. My guess is some engineer at Glock or others knows the answer to that question.

I'll pass on that experiment! This face is my money-maker!

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Except deep submersibles. That didn't work out too well. Gosh, who knew that carbon fiber sucks when it comes to compressive and shear strengths?
Even.... this guy knew that.

I have mentioned before I have been in some really weird and occasionally dangerous situations in places where you don't want to be if things go sideways. One of my quirks has always been to not get into aircraft or boats that are going out into open water when they appear neglected. I've never had an opportunity to get on a poorly made (or experimental) submarine though. But my same rule applies.

A college buddy of mine was an avid private pilot and built his own experimental aircraft from a kit. It looked like it was built properly but somehow something went wrong and it crashed. He was killed. 35 years old with a wife and kids. Building an experimental submersible seems even more risky. Getting in one just to say you did seems really stupid.

I often hear people say dumb things like carbon fiber is stronger or simply better than steel. Under certain conditions, it is. In others it's not. The average Joe or Jane who knows nothing about material science or physics should stick to what he or she knows. Certainly don't bet your life on shit you read on the interwebs.

By the way, broccoli cures cancer.

 

[Racer88]

I have mentioned before I have been in some really weird and occasionally dangerous situations in places where you don't want to be if things go sideways. One of my quirks has always been to not get into aircraft or boats that are going out into open water when they appear neglected.

Good policy to live by. I did get into a Navy jet and catapulted off an aircraft carrier... experienced full aerobatics... and then arrested landing on carrier deck. While I believe it's all well-maintained, it was a dangerous thing to do. But I knew I'd regret passing on the once in a lifetime experience. Coolest thing I've ever done (or will do) in my life.

But several shipmates warned me that I could die. Yep. But if I don't, I'll have the best cocktail party story of anyone! I got to live out my "Top Gun" fantasy. I can point to a scene in the movie "Top Gun," and honestly say, "I've done that!"

I often hear people say dumb things like carbon fiber is stronger or simply better than steel. Under certain conditions, it is. In others it's not.

Yeah... under certain conditions (12,000 feet of sea water), it will crush like paper mache.

The average Joe or Jane who knows nothing about material science or physics should stick to what he or she knows. Certainly don't bet your life on shit you read on the interwebs.

People are gullible because they are intellectually lazy. Even if you don't know about something, it's never been easier to access that information. But people are lazy. It's easier to go along to get along. And that means believing and parroting whatever the popular narrative is.... without even a modicum of vetting.

Mark Twain said (paraphrased): It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they've been fooled.

 

[Bobster]

To add to you fellow's conversation: when I bought this frame, I was just getting into building 80% pistols. I had acquired a Gen 4 slide for a "good" price that would not easily go on a PF940 and this frame came along on sale over the holidays. With lower parts kit I think it was around $100. I don't recall if any other makers were offering Gen4 slide compatibility or if I could afford them.

Great care was taken when gluing and clamping the rails during assembly. In hindsight, I could have prepped the surface better by roughing it up as I did above. I have had GREAT success using epoxies and other adhesives over my lifetime--"The Miracles of Modern Science!" And best adhesion is achieved after the surface is prepped and while the rails and surface were cleaned with denatured alcohol, I didn't scuff them up as I usually do with thicker epoxies such as JB Weld (black+white=grey).

I had tested this gun with a box of ammo then ran another 150+ rounds during my first Action Steel event. This really stressed it and the slide got noticeably hot after each stage. I didn't notice the loose rail until later that evening cleaning the gun. And it really wasn't THAT loose--kind of "baby-tooth" loose. I pried it apart and eventually got it to pop off with a small screwdriver. Then LW sent me a serialized frame and I put the FW back on the shelf until recently.

I am with you guys in that I don't want a slide smashing me in my pretty face. I don't think a failure would be catastrophic, though. I think that just like some of us can "feel" when the slide locks back after an empty mag, we could also "feel" when the slide starts to become loose. Now I didn't "feel" the loose rail until after taking the gun down but I think the gun would stop firing because of misalignment of striker/cruciform before it became catastrophic. This is NOT an unproven 3D-printed frame and I'm certain LW did a bunch of testing before offering to the general public.

Once I get some parts, and some more testing, this gun/frame will probably become a safe "jester" and maybe adopted out at some point...

 

[James Moore]

A failure is not going to send metal into my face or blow my fingers off.

To suggest that a failure of the adhesive to hold a piece plastic in place will result in sending metal into your face or blow your fingers off is a little far fetched.

I'm not sure how it could possibly blow your fingers off and to send metal/the slide into your face, all 4 rails and the frame would have to fail at the same time. Even without the adhesive, the rails are held in place by posts which don't allow up and down or back and forth movement. The caps are glued to prevent sideways movement.

I get it that some don't like the design, but the histrionics of metal to the face and lost fingers is a bit much from someone of your supposed background.

 

[Bobster]

PS: the GPT is a direct drop-in to this frame and other LW Timberwolf frames I would imagine...
NO SNIPPING REQUIRED!