SAFETY WARNING! Freedom Wolf Rails Can Come Loose!

[Bongo Lewi]

To suggest that a failure of the adhesive to hold a piece plastic in place will result in sending metal into your face or blow your fingers off is a little far fetched.

I'm not sure how it could possibly blow your fingers off and to send metal/the slide into your face, all 4 rails and the frame would have to fail at the same time. Even without the adhesive, the rails are held in place by posts which don't allow up and down or back and forth movement. The caps are glued to prevent sideways movement.

I get it that some don't like the design, but the histrionics of metal to the face and lost fingers is a bit much from someone of your supposed background.

If the rail fails... meaning it comes loose from the frame, the slide can launch off the frame and go somewhere.

To test this theory... Take the rail pins out. Front, rear or both. Insert mag. Rack slide, pull trigger. This would reasonably simulate bonded rails no longer being bonded.

Let's assume Lone Wolf frame with stamped rails glued in and the glue fails as @Bobster described. When the round fires, if the front rail is not secure, the slide would deflect up from the muzzle and backward. The recoil spring in that situation may not function as intended and attenuate the recoil. Would the rear rails prevent the slide from completely detaching? Maybe. But I wouldn't bet my eye or forehead on it.

So what happens if the rear rail lets go? Probably less dramatic but the slide would tend to deflect down from the muzzle, tilting up from the rear as it moved backward. That could cause the recoil spring and barrel to leave their home. And again, the front rail/locking block would have to bear that load in a manner it's not designed for. Maybe it would. Or not.

Maybe some reloaders can weigh in on specifics but my recollection is the average 9mm round is somewhere around 35,000 psi. Containing that non trivial explosion depends on the integrity of the slide and barrel assembly. It's hard to predict what else might happen if the slide ejects from the frame. Fully or partially.

While it's true that the failure of a rail would mostly manifest after the bullet had already left the barrel, I will concede that losing fingers is not likely. So I confess to using sarcasm to illustrate a point. But having received minor burns from simply shooting a big bore revolver that worked as designed, I'm going to stick with my overall theory that shooting a defective pistol in the situation described here can cause injury. Possibly to the hand.

 

[James Moore]

If the rail fails... meaning it comes loose from the frame, the slide can launch off the frame and go somewhere.

To test this theory... Take the rail pins out. Front, rear or both. Insert mag. Rack slide, pull trigger. This would reasonably simulate bonded rails no longer being bonded.

Let's assume Lone Wolf frame with stamped rails glued in and the glue fails as @Bobster described. When the round fires, if the front rail is not secure, the slide would deflect up from the muzzle and backward. The recoil spring in that situation may not function as intended and attenuate the recoil. Would the rear rails prevent the slide from completely detaching? Maybe. But I wouldn't bet my eye or forehead on it.

So what happens if the rear rail lets go? Probably less dramatic but the slide would tend to deflect down from the muzzle, tilting up from the rear as it moved backward. That could cause the recoil spring and barrel to leave their home. And again, the front rail/locking block would have to bear that load in a manner it's not designed for. Maybe it would. Or not.

Maybe some reloaders can weigh in on specifics but my recollection is the average 9mm round is somewhere around 35,000 psi. Containing that non trivial explosion depends on the integrity of the slide and barrel assembly. It's hard to predict what else might happen if the slide ejects from the frame. Fully or partially.

While it's true that the failure of a rail would mostly manifest after the bullet had already left the barrel, I will concede that losing fingers is not likely. So I confess to using sarcasm to illustrate a point. But having received minor burns from simply shooting a big bore revolver that worked as designed, I'm going to stick with my overall theory that shooting a defective pistol in the situation described here can cause injury. Possibly to the hand.

The point I tried to make and apparently was lost on you, is that there is more than glue holding the rails in. The glue holds the end caps to keep them in line. Yes if the end caps come off, the rails will come off also. If all 4 caps fail and the rails fall off to the side and someone still tries to fire it, they probably need to be hit in the head with something.

 

[Bobster]

If the rail fails... meaning it comes loose from the frame, the slide can launch off the frame and go somewhere.

I think the elephant in the hand here is that the block takes a good portion of recoil as it pivots the barrel down and out of battery. If anything, the barrel will guide the front of the slide down to a certain extent, decreasing velocity. Plus the recoil spring is compressed, pushing back against the slide. I believe all and all this is a non-issue...

 

[One Ping Only]

NASA

Never
A
Straight
Answer

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I have never seen a LW frame up close like this. Looking at this pic, I wouldn't trust that frame with somebody else's face. Bad design. I have a hunch they chose this because it's cheap and it's also possible that they didn't want to infringe on somebody else's patents.

Curious, I poked around a little to see the entire kit when it was new. Their current serialized frames abandoned this design. There's no way I'd trust those nubs to not shear over time. The glue would mitigate some of that but metal really isnt going to bond molecularly to plastic. What the glue is doing is fusing the nubs and that cover plate together.

Besides being what I would consider a half-assed design, I wonder what the effect of gun cleaning solvents, oils, and heat is on the adhesive.

I would chuck that frame and get something else. It's entirely possible that even after re-gluing it will fail again.

May I suggest some protective measures?

 

[James Moore]

Curious, I poked around a little to see the entire kit when it was new. Their current serialized frames abandoned this design.

Well, they didn't abandon the design, they never had it. The Timberwolf has always had the rails molded into the frame, just like many other 100% serialized frames.

Your theory that the nubs will shear over time is really laughable.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Well, they didn't abandon the design, they never had it. The Timberwolf has always had the rails molded into the frame, just like many other 100% serialized frames.

Your theory that the nubs will shear over time is really laughable.

I hope your laugh won't be toothless someday if you have one of those.

I wonder if you have any training in destructive testing. My guess is no.

We can already see that Bobster's frame failed. Duh. I guess the obvious was lost on you.

 

[James Moore]

We can already see that Bobster's frame failed. Duh. I guess the obvious was lost on you.

Bobster's frame didn't fail. The adhesive that holds the end cap on failed. Even without adhesive the rails are tight. Maybe if they all failed, the caps came off and someone continued to fire it, then yes the slide might come and hit them in the face, but like I said before, at that point they probably need to be hit in the head with something.

My guess though, is that the firearm would quit functioning long before that happened.
You're correct, I have no formal training in destructive testing, but I do know that anything will fail at some point.

Maybe you can tell us about your training in the design and testing of the Freedom Wolf.

 

[Racer88]

I will admit that I wouldn't trust this design with the glued metal-plastic sandwich. Maybe if it had a pin through it, as well.

 

[James Moore]

I will admit that I wouldn't trust this design with the glued metal-plastic sandwich. Maybe if it had a pin through it, as well.

View attachment 20289

That's the misconception. That it's basically a sandwich.
The rails are formed to the slot, which in itself securely holds them in place against up/down and back/forth motion. Also the pegs on the frame and the pegs in caps.
You could put the rails in with no glue, slap some tape over the caps and the firearm would function. Not for long before the tape came loose, but the point is, that the glue isn't holding the rails in. Just the caps.

 

[Bobster]

I don't think you all are considering the forces involved. I see frictional forces front to back on the rails and inertial mass which is absorbed by the frame/RCA. Then there might be slight up and down forces on the slide when the barrel unlocks and goes out of battery but most of those are absorbed by the block and frame. Lateral forces I believe are negligible, maybe slight when the extractor and ejector do their thing to spit the case out.

Look at the pic and the arrows. Remember this part is recessed into the frame and the rail is contained within it. The forces are easily contained and if the glue does its job, it can easily handle any side load generated.



Maybe I should get this mask, Lewi? Since it is a "Freedom Wolf" frame to carry forth the theme. Although this mask seems like it might be very restrictive...

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Bobster's frame didn't fail. The adhesive that holds the end cap on failed. Even without adhesive the rails are tight. Maybe if they all failed, the caps came off and someone continued to fire it, then yes the slide might come and hit them in the face, but like I said before, at that point they probably need to be hit in the head with something.

My guess though, is that the firearm would quit functioning long before that happened.
You're correct, I have no formal training in destructive testing, but I do know that anything will fail at some point.

Maybe you can tell us about your training in the design and testing of the Freedom Wolf.

Freedom Wolf? None. The fact remains that the frame described in the OP failed. It doesn't matter that there was no injury in this case. The forensics regarding why are unknown. Which is what opens the possibility that a greater failure was possible. It appears certain that the adhesive failed. That is absolutely a design flaw. Bad batch of adhesive... possible but unlikely.

Bobster is more astute gun enthusiast than the average schlub who bought one of those kits. How many of those did nitwits on Reddit buy? Those who cant drill a hole in a frame without buggering it. What happens when their glue fails? Will they even notice the rails are loose? Probably not. If one frame failed, potentially they could all fail in a similar fashion. Or more dramatically.

Since you sort of asked... I earned an engineering degree, worked for a licensed professional engineer for four years as required to be granted my own license. I did the coursework, took the exam and was granted a license that stated anything I put my name on was going to work, be safe, and conform to accepted engineering standards. I worked on process systems that are inherently dangerous if things go wrong. It's like being the guy who fires artillery. Every time you pull the lanyard, you put your stripes on the line. I found the work interesting but corporate life tedious. So changed careers and signed up to keep our country safe. I was pretty good at it. I think because I was trained to recognize and think through problems instead of reacting. Anticipating what might go wrong.

We can agree on one thing. All materials fail. What happens when they fail is where science and physics trumps opinions and wishes.

 

[Racer88]

That's the misconception. That it's basically a sandwich.
The rails are formed to the slot, which in itself securely holds them in place against up/down and back/forth motion. Also the pegs on the frame and the pegs in caps.
You could put the rails in with no glue, slap some tape over the caps and the firearm would function. Not for long before the tape came loose, but the point is, that the glue isn't holding the rails in. Just the caps.

I do understand the design and what you're saying. I'm saying I don't trust those plastic pegs, either. If they had a metal pin through there... different story. But the design depends entirely on those pegs and the slots.

I like the P80 design much better. Just me.

 

[Racer88]

Maybe I should get this mask, Lewi? Since it is a "Freedom Wolf" frame to carry forth the theme. Although this mask seems like it might be very restrictive...

You'd fit right in with this crew!

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I don't think you all are considering the forces involved. I see frictional forces front to back on the rails and inertial mass which is absorbed by the frame/RCA. Then there might be slight up and down forces on the slide when the barrel unlocks and goes out of battery but most of those are absorbed by the block and frame. Lateral forces I believe are negligible, maybe slight when the extractor and ejector do their thing to spit the case out.

Look at the pic and the arrows. Remember this part is recessed into the frame and the rail is contained within it. The forces are easily contained and if the glue does its job, it can easily handle any side load generated.

View attachment 20290

Maybe I should get this mask, Lewi? Since it is a "Freedom Wolf" frame to carry forth the theme. Although this mask seems like it might be very restrictive...

View attachment 20291

I like your mask better. Here's mine. The question is who is the horse's ass?

Fun fact: The Chinese bullet proof mask will stop a bullet but the concussion will turn you into a drooling paraplegic. Best to just take the bullet in the melon and die quickly!

 

[Bobster]

Those who cant drill a hole in a frame without buggering it. What happens when their glue fails? Will they even notice the rails are loose? Probably not. If one frame failed, potentially they could all fail in a similar fashion. Or more dramatically.

Between Bidet "outlawing" 80%s for a while, numb-nuts screwing up their holes and glue failures, I believe Lone Wolf made the executive decision to discontinue the Freedom Wolf frames. The serialized TWC3 is EXACTLY like this frame with the exception of instead of the rails being glued it, they are molded in.

One thing I noticed about these and the TWC1 is that the rear pin pushes in by hand because it is not having to be pushed through a metal rail assy like the P80s. I was concerned the pins were so "loose", but the web between your thumb and index finger holds it in place during firing not that pin even moves at all...

I'm saying I don't trust those plastic pegs, either.

I think the load is mainly on the frame because the rail segments are recessed. If anything, the pegs ADD strength because it is four more areas in the frame to secure the rail. That is IF the glue does its job. Of course, a serialized frame may use the same rails, I couldn't tell you and I'm not cutting apart a frame to find out... I'll add it to my list to "call LW to find out how the rails in serialized frames are constructed"...

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Look at the pic and the arrows. Remember this part is recessed into the frame and the rail is contained within it. The forces are easily contained and if the glue does its job, it can easily handle any side load generated.

All true. But it sure looks like the metal rail was loose and buggered the surrounding plastic and pegs. That rail is taking load in all directions when the gun is fired. The lateral movement is less significant. The torque on the part is likely to include a twisting motion as well as the perpendicular or upward and downward force you show. How much depends on how much slop there is between the frame and the slide. In scientific terms, it's been wiggling every time you shoot the gun. And metal being the harder material, it's impinging the plastic on all sides for every shot fired.

So... Joe Pudknocker is shooting the gun. The cover thing (which is not a cover - its structural. It's holding the rail in) comes off and he doesn't notice. He keeps shooting. Rail is loose. It comes off. What happens? The answer is not... Nothing. The slide may separate from the frame. It may not. Lots of variables. Why would anybody take that chance? Frames are cheap. Get one that doesn't fall apart.

 

[Bobster]

But it sure looks like the metal rail was loose and buggered the surrounding plastic and pegs.

So... Joe Pudknocker is shooting the gun.

I think @James Moore will attest to the fact that the rails were/are VERY snug going in, I'd even call them tight. The boogering is just a camera anomaly or something. The unglued rail was still tight when put back in along with the cap. In fact, the slide could manually be cycled without the rail or cap coming loose. And no, I would never have considered doing that with a live round...

Keep in mind that Joe (and Jill) Pudknocker also drive cars! And don't check tire condition or pressure, etc. THAT is what scares me the most!

 

[Racer88]

Keep in that Joe (and Jill) Pudknocker also drive cars! And don't check tire condition or pressure, etc. THAT is what scares me the most!

Yep. I bet less than 0.5% of car owners own a tire pressure gauge.

Sure... the newer cars have built in tire pressure sensors. But I still see a lot of people driving around with a tire that is obviously low on air.

Tires are THE most important safety feature on a car.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Keep in that Joe (and Jill) Pudknocker also drive cars! And don't check tire condition or pressure, etc. THAT is what scares me the most!

Indeed.

My mother years ago took her car to the dealer to get an oil change and tire rotation. She said there was a rumbling noise. I asked my BIL to go over and have a look. No lug nuts on the left front tire. She made it 4-5 miles... all the way home and the wheel didn't come off.

Sheer luck or are lug nuts unnecessary? I'll leave that question on the table as I exit the thread.