Does anyone carry one of their builds?

[Bobster]

Ultimately, I think there will be less cooperation with police investigations. Even if it was a clean shoot, you never know if a lib DA will try to "dirty it up". I think there are going to be more and more "mystery" crimes of thugs with mile-long rap sheets found dead from lead poisoning.

Another issue is victims who defended themselves now being civilly sued by dead criminal's families! WTF is up with that!

 

[Racer88]

Another issue is victims who defended themselves now being civilly sued by dead criminal's families! WTF is up with that!

That's only in some states. In many states, if lethal force was ruled legally justifiable (no criminal liability), then civil suits are prevented.

 

[Deleted member 709]

I flipped and flopped on this for months after posting this. I finallly decided the leftist commie assholes are gonna do what they are gonna do, and nothing I do or don't do is going to affect that. Look at Alvin Bragg in NYC FFS. If ever there was and example of "A grand jury can indict a ham sandwich", or "Show me the man, I'll show you the crime", we are living in it today.

Nothing we do is going to affect that. If you're tried in "Pennsyltucky" you're probably OK, if you're tried in Philadelphia, you are well and truly screwed (Google Larry Krasner). That's just a fact. So screw, 'em, I quit flip-flopping on this, and I carry my SSC any time I want. And I'm not going to have it serialized (YMMV). I do think it is pretty stupid to have "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" engraved on your slide, or have a Punisher logo on your slide end cap, but barring that sort of nonsense, make sure it's a good shoot and what will happen will happen. In a place like Philly (or NYC, Chicago, San Franshitshow, etc) screw defending on the laws, just go for the jury on emotion and what would they have done in that situation. Forget the DAs and judges, go for the heartstrings of the jury. They're the only ones who can save you, in the end.

How many Jan 6 peeps are STILL in jail? Who is helping them? I rest my case. Once I finally came to terms we live in a lawless country, or the law is capriciously applied based on your political leanings, the law became basically an irrelevancy in my mind. Do what you think you must/should, and don't worry about it.

Exactly. You made my point far more clearly than i did.

 

[Deleted member 709]

I agree that's entirely possible and certainly what SHOULD be entirely correct.

But I figure with a P80 PFC9 serialized build, I got the best of both worlds, so to speak. I get what I want for EDC, and if gawd-forbid I am forced to defend myself, the serial number heads the activist prosecutors off at the pass.

I truly hope I never have to find out. So far, so good. I've carried for 27 years and never even had to put my hand on it. I hope it stays that way.

We're on the same page. Im carrying one of the PF940v2's i built. I will eventually be carrying the PF9SS im building. At the moment nearly everything i do is here in Iowa so Im not concerned about having a serial on it. I will likely serialize myself the PF9SS to cover that base in other areas outside of iowa i pass through or visit. Aside from that, Im carrying what i built because its what works best for me. Thats why i built it. The rest is beyond my control and wont deter me. im following the law.

 

[Deleted member 709]

Well, if we're playing Devil's Advocate, we could also speculate a prosecutor saying "You BOUGHT that gun to kill someone."


I hope so. I imagine it's a matter of time before such a case happens.


I think we can also carry the Devil's Advocate scenarios too far and worry ourselves to death. If we were to carry such worries to a logical conclusion, we could only surmise that mere participation on gun forums would be equally damning.

I'm not learning to kill. I've learned to SAVE a life... my own.... by competence with the tool that enables me to stop an attack.

That's exactly the right response. Its not a tool for killing. Its a life insurance policy against someone trying to kill ME. nothing more. Its only even seen IF someone IS trying to kill me, which negates the entire smear. my goal is to 1. peaceably go about my business and 2. survive someone trying to end me should i encounter that. Nowhere in those two bullet points does killing anyone get mentioned. But i will say this: if forced, yes forced, to defend myself, the outcome for my attacker is irrelevant to me. The outcome for that person or persons is the consequences of their own actions, not mine, and my only concern is my OWN survival.

 

[Deleted member 709]

Ultimately, I think there will be less cooperation with police investigations. Evan if it was a clean shoot, you never know if a lib DA will try to "dirty it up". I think there are going to be more and more "mystery" crimes of thugs with mile-long rap sheets found dead from lead poisoning.

Another issue is victims who defended themselves now being civilly sued by dead criminal's families! WTF is up with that!

This is why CCW insurance is absolutely critical. you simply cannot do without it.

 

[Deleted member 709]

That's only in some states. In many states, if lethal force was ruled legally justifiable (no criminal liability), then civil suits are prevented.

do you have a resource on this? i want to investigate iowa's statutes on this.

 

[BeerHunter]

do you have a resource on this? i want to investigate iowa's statutes on this.

Racer lives in Florida, where we enjoy the protections of Chapter 776 of the Florida Statutes where in f.s. 776.032 provides "Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use or threatened use of force." You'll have to research Iowa Statutes to see how it's handled by the legislature there. Another great source is the great book and resource of The Law of Self Defense by Attorney Andrew Branca available here or on Amazon where Mr. Branca provides analysis summaries of self-defense law of all 50 of These United States.

 

[Alpa Chino]

I have a sincere, legitimate question. The guns we built are meant to be tools to protect ourselves with. We’ve crafted them, tested them, they are safe & reliable & likely higher quality than mere factory. But the consistent theme is is ‘i dont carry what i built because im afraid if it being used against me in court’. Then why bother? Seriously. It seems pointless.

Not too long ago a ‘Homebuilt’ carbon fiber submersible imploded killing all.
‘Tested’ by the builder but not certified.
If you experience an accidental discharge or negligent or whatever else makes your gun go off and kill someone….you’re on the hook for the full 100% unlike an AD or ‘I did not mean to’ bad shoot with a factory gun that has gone through a testing protocol and is ‘certified’ and had a SIG moment.
Sure you can say you tested it? How many drop tests did you do? One?
You get the point.

 

[Racer88]

Not too long ago a ‘Homebuilt’ carbon fiber submersible imploded killing all.
‘Tested’ by the builder but not certified.
If you experience an accidental discharge or negligent or whatever else makes your gun go off and kill someone….you’re on the hook for the full 100% unlike an AD or ‘I did not mean to’ bad shoot with a factory gun that has gone through a testing protocol and is ‘certified’ and had a SIG moment.
Sure you can say you tested it? How many drop tests did you do? One?
You get the point.

Manufacturers don't drop test every gun they make.

But I'm not sure I'm following your comment or point. What is your concern? If one of us has an AD / ND with a PMF that causes injury we'll be more liable than if it was a factory gun? If so, are you arguing we should consider getting rid of our PMFs on that basis?

I drop test every PMF. Admittedly, I have not drop tested my factory guns. I've seen it argued that we should do that... and cannot disagree.

 

[JCinPA]

Not too long ago a ‘Homebuilt’ carbon fiber submersible imploded killing all.
‘Tested’ by the builder but not certified.
If you experience an accidental discharge or negligent or whatever else makes your gun go off and kill someone….you’re on the hook for the full 100% unlike an AD or ‘I did not mean to’ bad shoot with a factory gun that has gone through a testing protocol and is ‘certified’ and had a SIG moment.
Sure you can say you tested it? How many drop tests did you do? One?
You get the point.

None of this is relevant. None. When you decide to point a loaded gun at someone, pull the trigger and shoot them because you feel you are in mortal danger, how many times you drop tested your gun is absolutely irrelevant. In and accidental shooting case, maybe.

Some of your posts make me wonder why you're even on a home-built forum at all.

 

[brian]

Some of your posts make me wonder why you're even on a home-built forum at all.

I tend to devil's advocate and likely over think things at times. My interpretation of the various comments here isn't a jab at how the poster feels about PMFs but more concerns about how the PMFs might be viewed by uneducated public in certain situations - more of a "with eyes wide open".

 

[Racer88]

I tend to devil's advocate and likely over think things at times. My interpretation of the various comments here isn't a jab at how the poster feels about PMFs but more concerns about how the PMFs might be viewed by uneducated public in certain situations - more of a "with eyes wide open".

There is no doubt that the uneducated public AND zealous prosecutors with an agenda will view and paint any use of any gun, ESPECIALLY a PMF in a bad light.

The question is... does it matter in the end? If lethal force in a defensive shoot is CLEARLY legally justified / defensible... then... acquittal of any criminal charges should be the predictable outcome.

IANAL.

 

[brian]

The question is... does it matter in the end? If lethal force in a defensive shoot is CLEARLY legally justified / defensible... then... acquittal of any criminal charges should be the predictable outcome.

That's what you and I as law abiding and reasonable people would expect to see happen if not no criminal charges being filed in the first place.

 

[Racer88]

That's what you and I as law abiding and reasonable people would expect to see happen if not no criminal charges being filed in the first place.

Sure... should be "no-billed" from the git-go.

But, I would like to hear of ANY case that ended up as a guilty verdict because it was a PMF... or the gun had a skull or "punisher" logo on it.

I understand they prosecution (and media) will seize upon such emotionally-charged factors. But does it actually affect the outcome? Do such things effectively cancel an otherwise CLEARLY legally justified use of defensive force?

 

[JCinPA]

I agree with a justified shoot, WHAT you use to shoot should be irrelevant. With today's DAs they'll try to screw you if you're using a 1970s vintage police .38 revolver, FFS.

However, I do think the punisher and kill them all let God sort them out stuff is problematic, because it speaks to mindset, and it would make it much easier for a crack prosecutor to paint you as bloodthirsty to a jury.

But carrying my builds, I just decided, I don't think it matters. YMMV.

 

[Racer88]

However, I do think the punisher and kill them all let God sort them out stuff is problematic, because it speaks to mindset, and it would make it much easier for a crack prosecutor to paint you as bloodthirsty to a jury.

I understand that concern and comport myself accordingly... Despite such trite expressions of bravado aren't my style anyway.

BUT... has ANYONE ever lost a case because of that? EVER? The mindset becomes irrelevant in the case of a blatantly legally justified use of force in self-defense. If self-defense is obviously justified, it doesn't matter if you are the shittiest most abhorrent personality on Earth.

 

[Alpa Chino]

To each their own opinion.
It’s about taking responsibility for your actions in life.
Some of you are confusing two different things, carrying your Homebuilt vs a justified shoot with a Homebuilt.
We have a video on here of a range incident where a guy picks up a gun and it goes full auto and he gets killed.
If that is a unmodified factory gun then maybe a design or manufacturing flaw caused it and the owner of the gun could have reasonably not expected this to happen.
Now it’s your homebuilt involved in this incident.
I can garantee you sure as F*CK that you are 100% responsible.
Tested your homebuilt? According to what testing protocol? Recommended by a manufacturer or by a fellow builder?
Have you kept records of your testing? Pictures? Did you have it independently safety tested?

Homebuilt aircraft require inspections and a sign off by the Experimental Aircraft Association. Your homebuilt race car requires an inspection prior to being allowed on the track.

I would be very hesitant to shoot someone else’s home built gun unless I’ve seen it shot and it didn’t have any issues.
Tap-rack-bang-tap-rack-bang hey random stranger would you like to shoot my cobbled together gun? Hell no thank you very much.

So again, carrying your fill-in-the- blank is a different story from a legitimate shoot.
And that’s not what you asked.
You asked, does anybody carry?

To answer your other question:
I have a couple of projects on the shelf.
Polymer self assemble thingies as it’s not really “building”. Try telling your hotrod buddies you’re an engine builder when all you’ve done is assemble a 350 with parts from the Summit catalogue and a built sheet from HotRod magazine’s budget build.
My eventual goal is to build/assemble my own metal 1911…ideally a matching pair.
Because of all sorts of other shit I haven’t come around to doing anything but reading here and sniping lol.
I’ve finished my first knife, thinking about #2,3,4 and 5. I’ve also got a motorcycle project. A ratrod bobber which is currently just a motor on a frame and two wheels.
Doing things around the house, you know man stuff.

So excuse me very much if you think I have no business on this forum.

 

[Racer88]

To each their own opinion.
It’s about taking responsibility for your actions in life.
Some of you are confusing two different things, carrying your Homebuilt vs a justified shoot with a Homebuilt.
We have a video on here of a range incident where a guy picks up a gun and it goes full auto and he gets killed.
If that is a unmodified factory gun then maybe a design or manufacturing flaw caused it and the owner of the gun could have reasonably not expected this to happen.
Now it’s your homebuilt involved in this incident.
I can garantee you sure as F*CK that you are 100% responsible.
Tested your homebuilt? According to what testing protocol? Recommended by a manufacturer or by a fellow builder?
Have you kept records of your testing? Pictures? Did you have it independently safety tested?

Homebuilt aircraft require inspections and a sign off by the Experimental Aircraft Association. Your homebuilt race car requires an inspection prior to being allowed on the track.

I would be very hesitant to shoot someone else’s home built gun unless I’ve seen it shot and it didn’t have any issues.
Tap-rack-bang-tap-rack-bang hey random stranger would you like to shoot my cobbled together gun? Hell no thank you very much.

So again, carrying your fill-in-the- blank is a different story from a legitimate shoot.
And that’s not what you asked.
You asked, does anybody carry?

To answer your other question:
I have a couple of projects on the shelf.
Polymer self assemble thingies as it’s not really “building”. Try telling your hotrod buddies you’re an engine builder when all you’ve done is assemble a 350 with parts from the Summit catalogue and a built sheet from HotRod magazine’s budget build.
My eventual goal is to build/assemble my own metal 1911…ideally a matching pair.
Because of all sorts of other shit I haven’t come around to doing anything but reading here and sniping lol.
I’ve finished my first knife, thinking about #2,3,4 and 5. I’ve also got a motorcycle project. A ratrod bobber which is currently just a motor on a frame and two wheels.
Doing things around the house, you know man stuff.

So excuse me very much if you think I have no business on this forum.

I carried my factory Glock 27 for over a decade. I never safety tested it. Neither did the Glock factory. I mean they did not test MY Glock 27. I assume they tested the prototypes and probably a random sampling of production guns from their factory. But do they test EACH of them? No. Of course not.

I've seen it argued that we should safety / drop test our factory guns, too. And I do not disagree with the idea.

So, at this point, I can say I have more confidence in my PMFs, which I HAVE tested vs any of my factory guns, which I have admittedly NOT tested.

If ANY of my firearms discharges unintentionally and injures someone, I will be held liable regardless of who made the gun. I go to GREAT lengths to prevent negligent discharges. The chances of true "accidental" discharges due to mechanical failure of any gun (PMF or factory) are infinitesimally small.

The rifle that went slam-fire-full-auto in the video you mentioned was an SKS which are well-known to have that problem with the old factory cosmoline is not removed / cleaned.

 

[BeerHunter]

Homebuilt aircraft require inspections and a sign off by the Experimental Aircraft Association.

This is factually incorrect!